The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[caww]

Well then who pray tell has been appointed to guard your church if everyone is ‘looking past’ these happenings and those who are committing them... and not acting with the authority Christ has given them to act!

First catholic church I entered had a Priest who had his own private male concubine. The laity knew it...and the Priest knew they knew. The kid was a troubled kid the Priest took under his belt, in more ways than one. I asked why nobody said anything about this, (I wasn’t even a Christen then.) I was told these stinging words..” We just accept this is how it is, he (the Priest) is truly loved here and no one can imagine him not being our Priest, the kid is better off with the Priest than on his own”. The year was 1987.... I was in that community 7 yrs. and watched that kid grow to be a damaged young man.

As I see it your sheep don’t have to worry so much about leaving the flock to run into wolfs...they’re already huddling next to them by remaining there...they lack the discernment to distiguish a wolf in shepherds clothing.

[presently no screen name]

1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife. 2And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

Now that is not complicated to understand. I don't see where it says 'because if there is a bad priest etc. we are to look beyond the faulty human tool and focus on God.”. IT SAYS REMOVE THEM.

[caww]

Cronos...if you saw a little girl on the street being raped by a man would you just look to Christ...would you not act to help her?

[caww]

Well it sounds like the catholic church is haaving serious issues with their Priesthood and Bishops worldwide.

As I mentioned...God has waited for the church to act...they didn’t so he exposed not only the problem but the churches refusal to address the problems...then we find the problem is widespread and the church is infested...still barely a whimper of action...then the church decides to instill new programs to plug the holes...yet continue to keep those who are guilty protected.
And now the Bishops are told not to report suspected abuses to the police...

So you see it is nothing at all about a focus on Christ....in fact quite the opposite...the churches refusal to act is simply putting itself in the hands of an agry God and He will not wait til “Dante’s Inferno” to count heads of Bishops....this is going to go all the way to Rome and the leadership there....which is what they are trying to protect...not the children...the leadership.

[caww]

Simple...remove them...but then they cannot reason with simplicity PSSN....it has to be complicated and confusing...they are conditioned this way.

[caww]

I know...this “faulty” stuff is Priestly garbble they speak to one another within the Priesthood I think. And that’s coming from the top down.

[presently no screen name]

But they have been around for sooooooo long - supposedly all their church fathers had all the answers for a universal church and what to do about homosexuality stumps them?

Bring in a 3rd grader, and the answer would be ‘remove them’.

[caww]

Who knows how long this has been going on...but when you have people stepping forward from 20 some years ago that does make a statement in itself. And then more and more Priests are confessing they did this...It is such an infestation.

I’m so livid they compare with other churches....in those churches I have seen things surface in... it is dealt with immediately. Adultry...your done. One young Pastor was sleeping with a thirteen yr. old babysitter of his children. Out within 24 hours. But those are the only times I’ve seen this action necessary or the problem as such in all the churches I’ve been in. They just deal with the issues head on.

[caww]

Read the link....and no wonder I am not Luthern if they all adhere to that. Much of which I disagreed with....and evidences they are not the church they once were.

[Cronos]

Frankly, that’s a different matter. I’m not Lutheran so will not comment on what they believe. All I will say is that Lutherans have had “Holy Absolution “ right since the time of Luther. This is not an innovation of theirs

[Cronos]

And how many of your pastors exactly meet those standards?

[Cronos]

Ah, now you have misunderstood -- I never said to look past their crimes as in condone them -- if you had read my post 1220, I said while those folks were heinous and should be hounded out or worse do note the % (2-3% in the US) and compare it to non-Catholic pastors and to secular professions like school teachers, etc which had similar or higher %

The % of pastors, school teachers etc. who have been molesters are similar in % to priests and all of these should be prosecuted, without question.

Remember what I actually said

The job of the flock is to follow The Good shepherd, Christ, to focus on Him, not on the sub-shepherds who have not one level of the ability of The Shepherd. Yet, the sheep are not to huddle away and form their own flocks with their own leaders because those sheep without shepherds are prone to wolves (from J Smith to Ellen G White to the Taize movement etc).

The focus is to be always on The Shepherd, not on the sub-shepherds/pastors.

this is related to the pastoral functions and teachings of Christ. We are not like the Northern tribes who broke away. No, the tribe of Judah stayed irrespective of the bad kings because their focus was on God. Kings, High priests, priests may come and go, but God remains and one focuses on God, not on the frail tools.

If the priests were bad, they were punished, but the people remained faithful to their God and did not break away like the Northern Tribes

[Cronos]

So, what is the percentage of conviction rate of pastors in your group who have molested children? How many have been removed?

[Cronos]

The key word is "was" as in the problem was that Rome up until JPII's last years was still too many fiefdoms and not enough pastoral control --> past tense.

God acts through His Church. Remember that all the Holy Spirit guides the Church inspite of the frailities of the tools

All the focus is on Christ, Our Lord and Our God -- we do not keep the pulpit front and centre, rather the focus and the attention during worship is completely on Jesus Christ.

[Cronos]

Now, don’t make up statements, caww — I said the convicted priests should be removed and are. How many of your pastors who have molested children have been removed? What is the conviction rate?

[presently no screen name]

And then more and more Priests are confessing they did this...It is such an infestation.

I didn't know that. While that is good, I think of the victims and lives ruined.

They just deal with the issues head on.

And that's the way it's dealt with when the issue is not wanted in their church. It leaves much to be considered regarding the CC.

[Cronos]

From this Lutheran website -- this is very good

Confession and absolution is the ongoing work of Baptism. It is a return to the water, a sprinkling with the Word of Baptism that first brought us life and cleansing. So basic is confession to the Christian life, that the Large Catechism simply says: “When I urge you to go to confession, I am simply urging you to be a Christian.” Christians confess their sins and are forgiven. Unbelievers deny their sins and have no use for forgiveness.

Bonhoeffer calls absolution without personal confession a form of “cheap grace,” a cross-less Christianity. It is the attempt to have repentance without shame, contrition without guilt. It is the equivalent of an out of court settlement - just pay the money admit no wrongdoing. God wants us at the bar of His justice. There is no back room bargaining with the Lord. There is only the Law and the Gospel, our sin and the death of Christ for our sin.

the Reformers were not satisfied with a generic confession, the kind that you, me, and 5 1/2 billion people could all say together. “I, a poor miserable sinner.” True enough, but what makes you say that?

Confession is directed in three ways - to God, to the neighbor, and to the pastor....

The person who boasts confidently, “I can confess my sins to God directly, and therefore don’t need the church,” misses the basic point. It’s not our confession, but God’s forgiveness that matters. And God always deals with us through the incarnation of Jesus, through earthy, creaturely means such as water, bread, wine, words, in this case sound waves that emanate from mouths and go into ear holes.

Christians also confess to their pastor. There are several good reasons for doing this. First, he is ordained to hear confession. That’s what we put him there for. It is one of the tasks laid on a pastor at his ordination. Second, he is equipped by practice and training to help others sharpen and deepen their confession and to square them to the Word of God. Third, he is bound by solemn vow to secrecy, something that a close friends is not. For a pastor to break the seal of confession is grounds for dismissal.

Fourth, the pastor is a public, corporate person. He holds an office. The pastor does not speak for himself but for Christ and for the whole church. The pastor is a minister, a servant of the Word, a steward of God’s mysteries revealed in Christ. He is not there as superior, but as servant. He serves not “from above” but “from below.” He is there not to condemn but to forgive. He is under holy orders to forgive

A pastor forgives by the divine order of the crucified, risen, and reigning Son of God, “in his stead and by his command.” He represents the person of Jesus, not his own person. Even if the pastor doesn’t like you, or even if you don’t like him, his forgiveness is Christ’s forgiveness, sure and certain, addressed to you. And that’s really all that matters.

“I absolve you. I forgive you.” This is no cheap, idle word. No “smile, be happy, God loves you,” saccharine sentimentality. This is a costly Word from God to you. It cost the Son of God his life. He sweat and suffered and bled and died so that this word might be spoken. It is a Word anchored in the past, nailed to the bloody cross of Golgotha, a Word that reaches into our present, into the here and now of our lives. It reaches into our ears and minds and hearts, a divine Word that says, “Christ Jesus died for you.” It is a word authorized and approved by the crucified and risen Son of God Himself, freshly risen from the dead with the wounds to prove it, who breathed His Spirit and words into His disciples and said, “The sins you forgive are forgiven; the sins you retain are retained.”

People are sometimes offended by the absolution. “Who can forgive sins but God alone?” The unbelieving Pharisees asked that of Jesus. “How dare that guy speak as though he were God!” People should be offended. The absolution is as offensive as the Incarnation of the Son of God. It is as offensive as the God who wears diapers and sleeps in a manger, or the God who hangs naked and bleeding on a cross. Only God can forgive. That’s true. And God only forgives through His Son, who became man, who speaks through His Church and the Ministry He ordained to speak. It is the living voice of God that we hear when we hear the absolution. “So if there is a heart that feels its sin and desires consolation, it has here a sure refuge when it hears in God’s Word that through a man God looses and absolves him from his sins” (Large Catechism V.14)

This is from the Holy Trinity Lutheran Church (lcms) website which states "Holy Trinity Lutheran Church is a member congregation of The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. We believe, teach, and confess the doctrine of the evangelical catholic faith as it is taught by the Holy Scriptures and faithfully confessed in the Book of Concord of 1580."

The more I read about the LCMS, the more I like them and the more I realise that they truly are orthodox.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

All the promises to the Jewish people involve salvation in Jesus Christ and inclusion in His one true body, the Church. They will return to the faith of their father Abraham. There is no greater blessing awaiting any people, Jewish or otherwise, than recognizing Messiah and shouting, "Hosanna to the Son of David! 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' Hosanna in the highest!" It’s been going on now for 2000 years.

AMEN!

[presently no screen name]

So, what is the percentage of conviction rate of pastors in your group who have molested children? How many have been removed?

Wait. I thought you were turning to God - that's the way you deal w/the problem. Is there a new law now that you should go around polling others outside the CC - sorta of 'take the heat' off the CC? Is that #2 after you are finished with #1 turning to God?

Or is it you want to leave the RCC and looking for one who follows God's Word only.

[Cronos]

Firstly, let me repeat -- we, the Church want those 1.8% of convicted ex-priests to stay in prison and rot. They have abused their authority and worse, abused their vocation. They will burn in the hottest fires of hell as they have not been the shepherds to their flock --

secondly, give me % terms and give me a comparison to your group or any other Christian group. What is the conviction rate of pastors in your group who have molested children?

The Associated Press reported that 250 out of 47,000 priests had been dismissed or had resigned by the time the bishops met last June, though it is not clear that all of the dismissals and resignations were due to abuse. Even if all 250 priests were abusers, it would still amount to about one-half of one percent (0.53 percent) of the 47,000 priests currently serving in America, a proportion far smaller than in most media accounts. Since some of the allegations involved priests who are now dead, the proportion of offenders within today's priesthood is significantly smaller than one-half of one percent. Unquestionably those who were convicted are dismissed and no matter that psychological "experts" had assured bishops in the 60s and 70sthat a month's stay at a treatment facility would "cure" this

What are the percentage conviction and dismissal rate of molesters in YOUR group or any other Christian group, I ask? Compare these and tell me 0.5% or more?

A 1992 study conducted in the Archdiocese of Chicago is the largest such study done to date. It examined the personnel files of all priests serving in the diocese. It found that out of the 2,252 priests who had served from 1951 to 1991, allegations of sexual abuse had been made against 59 of them, or 2.6 percent.

The study adopted a policy of favoring the accuser in cases of doubt, accepting hearsay testimony (which would not be allowed in court), and adopting a "preponderance of evidence" standard (as opposed to the "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" standard used in criminal trials). With this methodology, it concluded that 18 of the allegations of sexual abuse did not stand up, leaving 41 probable offenders, or 1.8 percent of the priests who had served in Chicago in four decades. (Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis [1996], p. 81).

A recent study conducted in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania showed a 1.7 percent figure of priestly sexual abuse involving minors

These are priests who are being hounded out and convicted -- what is the conviction rate and % in your or any other Christian group in comparison?

Now note the 1.7 to 1.8%, compare that to the opinion of an expert in pedophilia, Dr. John Bradford, who "estimates its [pedophilia's] prevalence at maybe four percent of the population" (John Cloud, "Pedophilia," Time, April 29, 2002).

If so, the percentage of pedophiles in the ranks of Catholic priests is significantly lower by all accounts than in the general population. This may be due to the psychological screening candidates for the priesthood are subject to prior to ordination-and to the practical fact that priests have less access to children than do typical pedophiles.

In his book Pedophiles and Priests, Prof. Philip Jenkins—a Protestant and an expert in the subject of pedophilia—stated, "The most-quoted survey of sexual problems among Protestant clergy states that some ten percent are involved in sexual misconduct of some kind, and that 'about two or three percent' are pedophiles, a rate equal or higher than that suggested for Catholic priests. These figures should be viewed skeptically; the methodology on which they are based is not clear, and they seem to rely disproportionately on individuals already in therapy. However, it is striking to find such a relatively high number suggested for both celibate and non-celibate clergy" (pp. 50-51).

Note that -- that 'about two or three percent' are pedophiles, a rate equal or higher than that suggested for Catholic priests.

cases of Catholic clerical abuse attract more attention than non-Catholic cases because the Church expects higher standards of its clergy and members than do other bodies. Because the Church keeps a detailed dossier on members of its clergy, giving prosecutors more extensive evidence to work with. Because the media seeks any opportunity to attack Christianity

Remember, he vast majority of priests and bishops (98% in the US alone) are still the honest, faithful servants of Christ and ministers to his people that they always have been.