Posted on 01/08/2011 6:43:59 PM PST by Grig
400 years ago Catholics looked on Protestantism as a cult of Christianity that lead people to hell, and looked on Protestants as not really being Christians. Clearly they've changed their minds a bit over the years on that.
In time, the same thing will happen with respect to Mormons IMHO. In fact it largely has already. While there are still some who speak of Mormons the same way that Catholics spoke of Protestants centuries ago, society in general recognizes The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as a Christian group.
For example:
Beliefnet.com lists Latter-Day Saints as a part of Christianity: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/Latter-Day-Saints/index.aspx
Wikipedia: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (abbreviated as the LDS Church, and colloquially referred to as the Mormon Church) is a restorationist Christian religion" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints
Likewise the definition of 'Christian' at dictionary.com doesn't require adherence to orthodox dogma. Nor am I aware of any reputable dictionary or encyclopedia that says otherwise.
Here on FR when you go to post to the Religion forum you have the option of checking off what denomination(s) the post applies to. In there it lists the category of "Other Christian" as being specifically for "7th Day Adventist, Churches of God, Messianic Christians, Unitarian, LDS, etc."
This of course is separate from the question of what set of teachings is actually correct. Christ taught that not all who lay claim to his name will have a legitimate claim, and in the end He will be the judge. That's fine with me.
What about the Blasphemous murderers who effectively rescued the Nicene Creed for the dust-bin of history ... namely Theodosius II?
Keep it up, son/daughter, your continued spittling of blasphemies is quite revealing for readers who didn’t realize just how heretical momronism is! Do you really want to say Jesus Christ was ‘a god’? I hope you have a lightening rod attached to the electrical system where you are. The Lord rebuke you, your father is guiding you, not Alpha and Pmega.
Even in the Old Testament/Tanakh, we do have instruction on the Three nature of God as Creator, Sustainer, and Deliverer. God Is manifested as three yet one, seen identified by 'the work He is doing'.
With each manifestation, we are given to realize His presence simultaneously as Creator--because we exist in the realm He created, as Sustainer--because the balance is too delicate to stand alone without His sustaining the separation and interdependence, and as God with us in the person of Jesus our Lord and Savior.
Which is the point. Mormons are not Christians, for instance, here are some instances where we differ — and thusly the labels (Christian and Mormon are not interchangeable):
That an actual infinite is possible;
That there is an infinite regress of gods;
The universe and gods exist co-eternally;
That Jesus death on the cross was only for Adams sin;
That Jesus is a god (one of an infinite), not God;
That God didnt create the space-time continuum;
That any Spirit child could have done what Jesus did if he advanced as quickly as Jesus did. . . (in fact there could be a Jesus up there right now that has been exulted before getting his physical body, like Jesus did);
That blacks were cursed spirit children who stayed neutral in the heavenly (Kolobly) war;
That blacks will become white in heaven/Kolob, or a planet/heaven of their own;
That Joseph Smith and others said ALL other churches were corrupt;
That Joseph Smith has multiple First Vision accounts;
That Joseph Smith used occultic practices to translate the Book of Mormon;
That he had many, many wives;
That LDS have added Scripture;
That Brigham Young ordered the deaths of innocents;
That Brigham Young had many, many wives;
That Jesus had many, many wives (at least according to LDS);
That the Book of Mormon claims to be a historical book yet not one iota of evidence for it can be found;
That Heavenly Father has many, many wives (that yes, he screws for eternity, the LDS and Islam have something in common also occult connections as well);
That god, Heavenly Father, was once a man on a planet that may have owned a 7-11 type business and have been unfaithful to his wife before being exulted and following a LDS like path to it exultation/salvation;
That Heavenly Father had a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother who were also once human;
On, and On, and On, and On ad infinitum!
For some reason Mormons have spent the first 140 years proclaiming that they are not Christian and have spent the last 20 years trying to convince the world that they are the only Christians.
Nice OPINION, but factS indicate otherwise.
Mormonism's foul roots are being exposed daily, and threads like this just keep the info flowing.
Thanks for posting yet another springboard upon which to hang mormonISM'S DIRTY LAUNDRY.
Ah...
Re-branding!
Where would the world be without it?
Them why be a MORMON?
None is righteous: no, not one.
It would be really nice if lds would just stop whining about being put upon and defend what they believe (beyond just links to unofficial sources and name calling).
I was not using ‘righteous’ as a theological term, however.
wow, Satan created the Catholic Church to set the canon of Scripture and faithfully hand copy these Scriptures for 1,500 years so real Christians can come out her. Makes sense to me!
Quite an article...Took a long time just to scroll past it...
You illustrate what I was talking about. Never mind the UNscriptural, extra-biblical, man-made bunk in that false religion of Catholicism, billions are still led by the nose in believing it.
This of course is separate from the question of what set of teachings is actually correct. Christ taught that not all who lay claim to his name will have a legitimate claim, and in the end He will be the judge. That's fine with me.
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Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 5:04:47 PM by Grig
I am posting this on behalf of many LDS freepers. They will post their own 'signature' to this in the comments below. --- Some of you have noticed lately a lot of LDS (ie: Mormon) threads here on FR. I'm going to tell you why.
For many years there have been several active LDS freepers here. We post to all the forums on relevant issues, and were happy to have a site where conservative values were so openly welcomed.
Those conservative values include faith in God, and freedom of religion. We fully respect the rights of all posters to express their opinions and views on religious matters, even when people choose to use those rights to express criticism of our own faith. We also support the ideas embodied in FR rules against religion bashing. There is no need for hostility and there should be no room for bigotry on FR. Every religion has it's miracles and mysteries. Every faith has things in it that are not or can not be proven, and things that run contrary to what secular science would have us believe. Someone mature and confident in their own faith generally doesn't feel the need to belittle the faith of others.
We have, to the best of our ability, conducted ourselves with civility and dignity. We do not feel that that respect has been returned by some posters (putting it mildly).
When Mormon missionaries were murdered, the moderators were kept busy pulling jubilant posts off the thread. When Elizabeth Smart was abducted from her home, we contended for months with posters who appeared to be motivated by religious bigotry doing all they could to smear the family and accuse the father. Several posters openly admitted their religious motivation in opposing Mitt Romney and confessed that no matter how conservative any Mormon was, they would never vote for one for President of the USA. When the Pope died, I don't think any Mormon poster posted anything unkind, yet the thread about the passing of our President recently needed many comments removed.
Nearly every thread having any connection with Mormons, or Utah winds up being hijacked by anti-Mormon activists who copy and paste the same false accusations over and over even when it has been clearly and factually pointed out to them on multiple occasions that they are bearing false witness against our faith. Everything possible is done by these activists to make FR a hostile place for Mormons, and for at least some of them, bashing Mormonism is all they do here. Their most recent project is trying to blur the fact that the polygamous FLDS is a separate and distinct religion from ours, just as Lutherans are a separate and distinct religion from Catholicism.
In our opinion, such poster do a great disservice to FR and to their fellow freepers by spreading disinformation and promoting hostility towards a people known for walking the walk of conservative values.
Why the moderators here don't see the behavior of these anti-Mormon activists as religion bashing is a mystery to us, but it is the moderators call to make and we respect their right to do so. That doesn't mean we have to be passive however. We have all spent many hours refuting the accusations leveled at our faith, but these wind up buried deep in a flood of comments, effectively shouting us down.
NOTE by GF: Sounds like an appeal for censoring debate to me.
Recently some of us have decided to take a more proactive approach. Rather than try to wrestle the pig into taking a bath, we are just going to hose it down. We will actively define our faith here rather than just respond to accusations.
So expect to see lots of Mormon threads, now and for as long as we see fit to keep posting them (although probably not as many as there are Catholic threads). They will be about our basic doctrines and responses to common accusations. If you want to know what our faith is about, read the articles we post. We will post them as open threads and I encourage you to compare the difference in tone and spirit between what we post and what our critics say.
Anyone who would read the recent mormon threads would see that the prophecy made May 08, 2008 has yet to be fulfilled, and that the named intention by mormons to bring to FR posts which "actively define our faith here rather than just respond to accusations" have instead become either articles posted as closed threads to avoid discussion or posts either whining about the information being posted direct from LDS sources by others or continuous "bashing" of the dreaded "antis" as is seen taking place on this very thread.
Speaking for the Inmans, we welcome any and all posts "defining mormonism beliefs", particularly any of them that are backed up by Biblical sources.
We especially welcome comments by mormons that abstain from the name-calling and personal remarks about anyone who rebuts the "defining mormonism" posts. Couching personal innuendoes and name-calling of those who differ, followed by a long list of "We should all love one another" Bible verses IMO is not "discussion", but could more accurately be called "venting".
P.S. Rebuttal is NOT "accusing" or "bashing".
Defining any difference in doctrine as bashing is as misleading as claiming that mormonism is Christianity.
It says EVERYTHING when a Mormon (Grig) comes on FR & lists a "designation" -- in this case being in the same category as Unitarian universalists...who believe all people will be saved & Jesus Christ is optional...as being A-OK with them!!!
Mormons, too believe just about EVERYBODY will be "saved"...
...Just as soon as all that stone "paperwork" from B.C. & A.D. Dark Ages times is uncovered so they can run the genealogy on all those folk...
...So that their teens can scurry into their Mormon temples, get dead-dunked by proxy for them, and then dead Lds missionaries will make the trek to that part of the spirit world where they are to show them "I'm a Mormon & you can be one, too commercials
The Spirit World, Our Next Home
If you think I'm "making this up," here -- Here's an 8-point summary of the article so that you can get an idea of what Mormons teach about the "spirit world":
1. The Mormon spirit world is "on this earth."
2. Lds "prophet" Ezra Taft Benson declared that the spirit world is not far away. Sometimes the veil between this life and the life beyond becomes very thin."
3. The wicked go to "spirit prison," which is not eternal hell. [Note: Lds remove eternal hell from their essential theology, even though the Book of Mormon talks about it]
4. The author references a spirit prison (1 Pet. 3:1820, 1 Pet. 4:6) but then goes on to describe it as "chiefly a place of learning and waiting, not a place of suffering." [Oh. First Mormons eliminate the eternality of hell. Then they redefine actually as a "school," which I suppose for some students of our public schools, the same thing as "hell."]
5. "In short, the spirit world is the temporary home of the spirits of all mankind, whether they are good or evil. Thus Joseph Smith could declare that the righteous and the wicked all go to the same world of spirits until the resurrection. (Teachings, p. 310.) Yet some have wondered why Jesus promised the dying thief that after his death he would join the Savior in paradise. The Prophet Joseph taught: King James translators make it out to say paradise. But what is paradise?"
6. So, instead of teaching that the righteous go to heaven, or really any "degree of salvation," Mormonism actually emphasizes a "dumbing down" where "all mankind" originally goes to the same place, no matter what! And guess what? God isn't there! Per Mormonism, "it is NOT the place where God the Father, the resurrected Lord, and other resurrected beings dwell. Rather, it is an intermediate condition or state where people await the resurrectiona sphere where disembodied spirits live in one of several conditions according to what their mortal lives have merited."
7. So, so far, trusting in Jesus Christ and relating to Jesus Christ amounts to what your life merits. You're just a cosmic Boy Scout.
8. Thus, Mormons remain "missionaries" on the other side. It's no place of rest as the Bible describes heaven. Yup, for Mormons "...the spirit world is the place where disembodied spirits go. It is a tangible, substantial sphere incorporated with our earth, the focal point of a massive missionary effort in which we share." Thus, they get to continue to earn their way to heaven by trying to bump up others along the way!
BTW, this is why Lds are so obsessed with genealogy & the dead! One of their "prophets," Joseph Fielding Smith, repeatedly said there wasn't anything more important for Mormons to do than to be so focused on the dead!
Some may feel that if they pay their tithing, attend their regular meetings and other duties, give their substance to the poor, perchance spend one, two, or more years preaching in the world, that they are absolved from further duty, but the greatest and grandest duty of all is to labor for the dead! (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol II, pp 42-44).
And: "The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead." (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, p. 146).
"We have a great work before us in the redemption of our dead....There are fifty thousand millions of people in the spirit world...Those persons may receive their testimony, but they cannot be baptized in the spirit world, for somebody on earth must perform this ordinance for them in the flesh before they can receive part in the first resurrection and be worthy of eternal life." (LDS "prophet" Wilford Woodruff, JoD, Vol. 22, p. 234)
Grig, simple concepts. You're simply, completely wrong.
That’s the point. Mormons aren’t Christians!
Amen, Grey!
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