Posted on 01/08/2011 6:43:59 PM PST by Grig
400 years ago Catholics looked on Protestantism as a cult of Christianity that lead people to hell, and looked on Protestants as not really being Christians. Clearly they've changed their minds a bit over the years on that.
In time, the same thing will happen with respect to Mormons IMHO. In fact it largely has already. While there are still some who speak of Mormons the same way that Catholics spoke of Protestants centuries ago, society in general recognizes The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as a Christian group.
For example:
Beliefnet.com lists Latter-Day Saints as a part of Christianity: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/Latter-Day-Saints/index.aspx
Wikipedia: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (abbreviated as the LDS Church, and colloquially referred to as the Mormon Church) is a restorationist Christian religion" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints
Likewise the definition of 'Christian' at dictionary.com doesn't require adherence to orthodox dogma. Nor am I aware of any reputable dictionary or encyclopedia that says otherwise.
Here on FR when you go to post to the Religion forum you have the option of checking off what denomination(s) the post applies to. In there it lists the category of "Other Christian" as being specifically for "7th Day Adventist, Churches of God, Messianic Christians, Unitarian, LDS, etc."
This of course is separate from the question of what set of teachings is actually correct. Christ taught that not all who lay claim to his name will have a legitimate claim, and in the end He will be the judge. That's fine with me.
Do you go to church?
Notice: Since there has been a lot of accusations about who is Christian and who is not, I’ve invited a few of somewhat different ‘persuasions’ to observe or even reply.
**Quote Scripture to me MHG ... I deal in the Doctrines not in the twisted fantasies that you distort from someone journal. Let’s talk Scriptures .... or can you back your beliefs up with them?**
I can, but refuse your BoM, as it’s been proven to be a compilation of rewritten scripture, mixed with other ‘stuff’. AND... I must say I’m from west central IL, and can tell you that if just a tiny fraction, of the ‘negative publicity and old wives tales’ that has been passed on from generation to generation is true, Mr. Smith was a really bad dude. Since that is not scripture, I’ll move on to the Word, and take you to task.
You say that the Christ didn’t believe in a three person trinity of God. That is correct, but you still don’t know who God is. MHGinTN took you to John chapter 1, so lets start there:
John 1:1 states that ‘IN THE BEGINNING was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God’. God does not have a ‘beginning’, but his magnificent plan did. That chapter 1 intro culminates with John 1:14 (the Word was made flesh) is to be read with the understanding of the mystery of the Godhead, and there is a multitude of other scriptures that harmonize with it.
That verse is explaining that God’s Spirit, God’s mind, even his very righteous plan for mankind, was made audibly and visibly manifest to man, by meeting mankind on their very mortal level. The main theme repeated over and over in John is the fact that the Father (Spirit) is in the Son (flesh w/a soul, created by God), and that the FATHER is the source of ALL things divine.
God is Christ, only if you’re referring to the Father dwelling in him, which is undeniable fact. Most notably in John chapters 5, 8, 10, 14, 15, and 16, Jesus Christ spoke a great deal about ‘the Father’ in him, teaching him all things, telling what to say, doing the ‘works’, etc. When speaking of God dwelling in himself, the Christ calls him the Father, not the Holy Ghost. (As we know, the Holy Ghost is “..the Comforter..which PROCEEDETH FROM the Father..”. John 15:26)
IN those chapters are some very clear claims by the Christ:
John 5:19 “..the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..” The Man that God SENT (God doesn’t need to be sent anywhere, he’s already omnipresent) received instruction on EVERYTHING. God doesn’t need instruction on anything, for he knows ALL things.
John 5:26 “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he GIVEN to the SON to have life in himself.” God can’t be given anything he doesn’t already have. God is the giver of life, not the receiver.
John 5:27 “And hath GIVEN him (the SON) AUTHORITY to execute judgement also, because he is the Son of man.” God is the GIVER of authority, not the receiver.
John 6:37 “All that the Father hath GIVEN me shall come to me..”.
John 8:28 “..as my Father hath TAUGHT me, I speak these things.”
John 10:27-30 “My sheep hear my voice.... My Father, which GAVE them me is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one (by now you should see the flow of power consistantly coming from the Father to the Son)
John 14 is the ‘heavy iron’ of this revelation of the Godhead. “I am the way, the truth ,and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye KNOW him. and have SEEN him.......he that hath SEEN me hath SEEN the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the WORDS (REMEMBER JOHN 1:1??) that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that DWELLETH IN ME(HELLLOOOO?), he doeth the works.” vss 6-10.
Red letter bibles show ‘the words of Christ’ in red, but don’t differentiate when he speaks as a man, or when he speaks as the Almighty God. For example, as mortal man: “ I thirst”, “I of mine own self do nothing..”, and think on this one a moment, “But of that day and hour knoweth....my Father only” (the ‘2nd and 3rd persons’ don’t know??); but as God the Father: “ I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven”.
The Father and the Son are fused. Also, after the resurrection, there are no mortal man comments (”take this cup from me”, a cry indicating the limits of the flesh). Christ’s will of the flesh died and did not ‘resurrect’. Jesus Christ did NOT correct Thomas for calling him “My Lord and my God”. He, along with the other disciples, were enlightened 6 chapters earlier; thoroughly taught that the Father was in him and he in the Father, and that they were one.
Matthew 28:19, “..baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father (comma) and of the Son (comma) and of the Holy Ghost..”, is often used as the scriptural ‘centerpiece’ of trinitarianism.
What is the NAME? Read on.
Jesus Christ was addressing his disciples. They KNEW who he was. And they KNEW that the NAME (singular) was one.
Jesus made it clear that he INHERITTED his name, saying that he came in his “Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his OWN name, him ye shall receive” (John 5:43).
“...as he hath by INHERITANCE obtained a better name than they.” Heb. 1:4
Jesus Christ declared that the Holy Ghost would be sent in HIS name. John 14:26
That’s why the apostles baptized in the NAME of JESUS.
In conclusion: God the Father made the body and soul of Jesus Christ and dwells in him, which is why Christ is the fulness of the Godhead bodily; the infinite God (Spirit) placing all power in him. That’s why Christ is the true God and eternal life, fulling Isaiah 9:6, where he is called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace”.
**There’s a cult group headquartered near where I live which rejects the Trinity also, and they make exactly the same error you make here in their attempt to refute Trinitarianism.**
Throwing the term ‘cult group’ around is something to not take lightly, so you should also solidify your claim with a name of said group.
Do I deny the trinity? It’s not hard when neither the LORD, nor even the apostles ever taught anything like the trinitarian ‘Creeds’.
A brief example of the confusion those ‘creeds’ display is shown in the following numbered lines from a posting of the so-called ‘Athanasian Creed’:
**10. The Father is eternal: the Son eternal: the Holy Spirit eternal.
22. The Son is of the Father alone: not made; nor created; but begotten.**
Eternal=begotten?? (gonna need a rubber dictionary to make those mean the same thing)
The following statement is contradictory to the verse which follows it.
**25. And in this Trinity none is before or after another: none is greater or less than another.**
“..I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” John 14:28
And this:
**12. As also there are not three uncreated: nor three immeasurable: but one uncreated, and one immeasurable.**
??
So there are TWO that ARE created, and TWO that ARE measurable?? (my head hurts now)
More confusion:
**13. So likewise the Father is almighty: the Son almighty: and the Holy Spirit almighty.**
If one is almighty, there is no need for the others. If one needs the others, that one is not almighty.
And these next ones........?????????????
17. So the Father is Lord: the Son Lord: and the Holy Spirit Lord.
18. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord:
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there are three Gods, or three Lords.
?????????
Tell me, now who is it that is the author of confusion?
And how does a ‘trinitarian’ explain this: “But of that day and hour knoweth....my Father only” (the ‘2nd and 3rd persons of God’ don’t know??)
Shifting gears:
Does sheer numbers make a doctrine true; as in millions of people and centuries of ‘tradition’?
Of all the world, only Noah’s family was saved in the flood. A tiny fraction of the population. Jesus Christ declared that the way is strait and narrow, and few there be that find it.
I ask these two questions:
What divine powerful attribute did the Son give to the Father, if any?
If the Holy Ghost is a ‘separate and distinct person of God’, what divine powerful attribute can it give to the Father that the Father doesn’t already have?
My answer to both is that the Father is the source of all things divine (my previous post covers this fact).
Your exegesis regales my soul!
It’s rather amusing some people take the Catholic Scriptures, ( and make no mistake, you honor Catholic Sacred Tradition every time you use the 27 book NT ) and claim to be members of the Church, yet claim Catholics aren’t Christian. Were it not for the Catholic Church receiving the original books ( Hebrews, Romans, John, etc ) and faithfully copying by hand these same books, thse “Bible-believing Christians” would have no Bible and in all probability, would have never heard of Jesus. And hear i thought all the know-nothings had died off!
Something isn’t true because it’s old, but in this case for a doctrine to be true, it must have been taught by the Apostles and understood and taught by the successors of the Apostles. What you believe is not orthodox, historical Christianity. The Apostles taught and the Church has received the doctrine of the Trinity. Can you trace your concept of God thru the centuries. If the Jesus was correct, the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church, where was your non-trinitarian church in the 2nd century? how about the 5th century? 8th century? Seems to me you hold to Cambellism, which was started in the 19th century.
Why do you ask more questions? What are you after?
I was wondering where you were taught the following:
he Bible is clear that in these last days, deception will be widespread, and MOST people will be deceived.
Mormonism is not Christianity, and neither is Catholicism, or Islam, or many other false religions born in the pit of hell.
One of Satan’s big schticks is to create false “religions” to deceive billions of people.
The Word of God is clear that only a remnant—a small number—of people will be saved. Not my words, God’s words.
Is that what the Bible taught you or is that what you have been taught.
The Bible is clear that even during the time of Jesus’ ministry, there were people who were infiltrating the ranks of the believers and were perverting the Gospel of Christ and leading people astray.
The deception has continued to this day and will not end until the Lord comes back and sets things right. The man-made, extra-biblical, unscriptural doctrines of the Catholic church are anathema to the Bible, God’s revealed Word. Search the scriptures honestly, and you will see. But, as long as you remain committed and locked in to the deceptive teachings of the Catholic church, you won’t see, and we will certainly not agree.
I learned those things from studying the Bible and from studying the teachings of some of the world’s false religions. When you study the Bible in-depth, you learn many things, with the Holy Spirit as your teacher, and you can easily spot counterfeit teachings.
Doctrines of Mormonism, Catholicism, Islam, and other world religions are contrary to the Bible’s teachings. Unless you see the Word of God for what it is—God’s Word—then none of this means anything to you anyway. The Bible warns against false religions in both testaments. The apostles warned of fakers who were infiltrating the church and leading people astray.
If you knew the Word, you would know that it lets us know that Satan is the great deceiver. Read the book of Revelation, as I mentioned earlier, there are plenty of passages just there alone that indicate he is a liar (Jesus also said he was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. John 8:44), and that all the nations of the earth will be deceived by him.
There are a number of places in the Bible, Old and New Testaments, that indicate only a remnant of humanity will be saved. Don’t you recall Jesus’ teaching about the narrow and the wide gates? Wide is the path and broad is the gate that leads to destruction and many go there, but narrow is the gate that leads to life, and few find it.
Read the Bible. It’s all in there, and much more besides.
Grig?
Forget it. I figured it out. The Author
Hmm...let me "fix" this vanity for you [bold-faced="added" copy]:
400 180 years ago CatholicsMormons looked on Protestantism, Catholics & Orthodox as apostates of Christianity that lead people to a Joseph Smith-free hellish existence, and looked on Protestants as not really being Christians. Clearly they'vehaven't changed their minds a bit over the years on that (kinda hard in that's it's basically embedded in Mormon stone like the 10 commandments). In time, the same thing will won't happen with respect to how Mormons regard Christians IMHO. In fact it largely has already become worse because now Mormons act so schizophrenic on this subject -- saying one thing to your face all the while their printed material says the exact opposite! While there are still some who speak of Mormons who treat Christians the same way that Catholics spoke of Protestants centuries ago, society in general recognizes The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as Mormons... and then Christians as distinctly a Christian group. In fact, even the vanity-author, Grig, distinguished the two by the headline of "Mormon and Christian!"
So God so loved the world He sent a Book?
there is a difference between some people infiltrating the Church with false teachings ( this has happened for 20 centuries ) and your believing the whole Church went apostate in the late first century, early second century. If that is true, then we have no confidence that the Bible you hold is the Word of God. How can an apostate Church correctly choose the inspired Word of God from false books that claim to be Scripture, when one of the criteria they used was did the Book teach what they received as Sacred Tradition from the Apostles. of course this apostasy theory of yours in nonsense, since the Holy Spirit was sent to protect the Church and guide it into all truth. you really need to think about what you believe, but i am afraid this hatred of the Church is too strong. i will pray for you.
Just one point of many of your “sacred traditions” has you worshiping the mother of Jesus. That’s unbiblical idolatry, pure and simple. I don’t recognize your man-made traditions. You can reject God’s Word all you want. No one will ever force you to see.
You and I will get nowhere in this discussion. As I said, we will not agree. Have a good evening.
You are being deliberately obtuse.
Have a good evening.
Read the Bible - great advice! Since you do read the Bible and believe what you read ( as we all should ) that means when Jesus said “This is My Body”, you believe he meant it’s His Body, correct? I am sure you will say correct, unlike a lot of people who claim to read and believe the Bible, but really don’t!
Did someone remove the part about bearing false witness against your neighbor from the Bible? No Catholic ever could or would worship Mary ( that would be idolatry! ) since she is not God and is a created human being. Catholic doctrine teaches only God ( Father, Son and Holy Spirit ) can be worshipped. I am sure an apology will now be offered.
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