Posted on 01/06/2011 2:31:49 PM PST by Paragon Defender
BY: Orson Scott Card
"I asked my priest," he said, "and he told me that Mormons are a cult."
Setting aside the obvious riposte ("What did you think your priest would tell you, that Mormonism was true Christianity as restored by God to living prophets?"), I think it's worth considering just what we mean by "cult" and seeing whether it applies to the Mormon Church.
Cult as Bad Word
Anti-Mormons use "cult" the way gay activists use "homophobe"--as an ad hominem epithet hurled to try to silence any persuasive opponent whose ideas can't be countered on their merits.
When used this way, "cult" just means "religion I want you to fear so much you won't listen to them." Or even, "religion I want you to hate so much that you will remove it from the list of churches that deserve constitutional protection."
But just as "homophobe" has a core meaning (someone with a pathological fear of homosexuality to the degree that it interferes with his life), so also with "cult." The only reason it works as name-calling is because there really are religious groups that do--and should--scare us.
There are real examples of what we mean by cults: Jim Jones' group that destroyed itself in mass murder and suicide in Guyana, or those sneaker-wearing folks who killed themselves to join aliens approaching behind a comet. And even though the Branch Davidians may not have been as monstrous as they were depicted in the media, they still clearly fall within what we mean by that word.
What do they have in common?
Charismatic Founder. Cults gather around charismatic individuals who are the sole source of truth to their followers.
Exploitation. The leader enriches himself through the financial contributions of the members, or gathers personal power that he uses to exploit members in other ways to benefit himself. If the group survives the leader's death, it remains a cult if his successors continue that exploitation.
Automatons. The members are discouraged from thinking for themselves, and, insofar as possible, are turned into unquestioning "obedience machines."
Withdrawal and Isolation. Perhaps because exploitation and obedience are easiest to maintain when the ordinary world can't offer its distractions and attractions, cults tend to withdraw physically, seeking ever greater isolation. This is often used as part of the conversion process, to keep the prospective member from hearing counterarguments. The gathering of money to help the poor or pay for meetinghouses or publications can be called "exploitation." The natural desire of converts to live according to the teachings of their leader can look like lockstep blind obedience to those who live a different way. And if outsiders persecute the new religion, it is only natural that adherents will want to band together and get away, if only for a few hours at a time, to be able to practice their religion in peace. All religions have a body of teachings that becomes a lens through which the believers see the world around them. To those who don't believe, the lens seems to be a distortion of reality--though of course, those unbelievers are merely distorting reality their own way, through their own lens. No one sees reality without passing the data through the lens of their own preconceptions. All religions also form a community, however loosely organized, of like-minded believers who set the standard of correctness. Whether that standard is rigid or relaxed, those who cross it are expelled from the community and are treated as heretics, apostates, or infidels. Severe treatment of heretics can be found from the lowliest cult to the largest church, from the most rigid sect to "open"-minded, post-religious academia. You have to get fairly close to a new religion in order to see whether it is acting like a cult or like a religion. Most of those who hurl the word "cult," however, do not bother to get close. And those who do are often so grimly determined to attack that they distort all evidence in order to support the charge. Exploitation? As for exploitative leadership, this charge is absolutely false and always has been. Joseph Smith passed the money test with flying colors: He died poor and in debt, not because of profligate spending, but because any money that flowed into his hands flowed right back out again in attempts to benefit the saints and build the church. In the years since, a handful of church offices have become salaried, but the salaries are merely enough to sustain normal family life. The perks of wealth are shunned even by those church leaders who were rich before being called to one of those rare salaried offices. And church leaders constantly struggle to eliminate the sycophancy, the cult of personality, and the general "sucking up" that are bound to arise in any hierarchical organization. Automatons? Those who have actually lived in a Mormon ward--and especially those who have tried to lead a group of Mormons in any kind of activity--can all affirm one truth: Mormons may well be the most stubborn, independent-minded group of people ever assembled as a religious community. Joseph Smith received a revelation that established the only style of leadership that actually works in the Mormon church (or, in the long run, anywhere): You can only lead by persuasion, by love, by patience, by your own willingness to learn from those you lead. Every now and then, some local Mormon leader will try to give orders or attempt to manipulate people into doing things his way. But he very quickly learns that the more he does that, the less obedient we Mormons become. Far from being robots, most of us Mormons are, by inclination and by doctrine, determined to make up our own minds about everything. It's a core doctrine of Mormonism that each member of the church is personally and individually responsible for their own relationship with God. Isolation? As for the cultish trait of isolating converts from any other influence, or brainwashing them till they can't think for themselves, our method of teaching would-be proselytes is the opposite. We usually teach them in their own homes. Our missionaries come for a little while and then leave them to themselves to read, ponder, and pray. We counter the attacks of anti-Mormons by telling the truth about our beliefs and practices, not by trying to cut off contact with our opponents. Far from becoming isolated, a new convert to Mormonism is taught to be more respectful and loving to parents, spouse, children, and other family members and friends. They usually do better at their careers and education, and if withdrawal takes place it is because their new Mormon lifestyle and beliefs are rejected by their family or friends. Indeed, calling Mormonism a cult is usually an attempt to get people to behave like robots, blindly obeying the command that they reject Mormonism without any independent thought. Kettles, as they say, calling the pot black. Here's the simplest statement I can make: If Mormonism were a cult, I would know it, and I would not be in it.
It's worth pointing out that there are very few religions of any size or influence that did not begin with a charismatic founder and whose members did not seem, to outsiders, to behave in much the way I've just described. A humble, wise teacher can always be charged with "setting himself up as the sole source of truth" merely because he offers any unusual idea.
How Does Mormonism Measure Up?
Joseph Smith was a charismatic leader, but he was murdered 156 years ago. Nowadays, we have leaders who, while sometimes gifted at communication, are rarely of the dramatic, movement-founding type. Indeed, I feel safe in saying that the majority in my lifetime have been rather dull and gray, and they are followed far more because of their office than because of any personal charisma.
Kettles and Pots
On all these points, I daresay that the Mormon church is less cult-like than many of the religions that delight in calling us one.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Worship whatever doctrine you wish.
____________________________________________
Now kid you know I wouldnt ever do that...
and you better stop doing that also...
Dont you feel blessed to have me to teach you ???
The LORD Jesus Christ said to yellowroses, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Nno man or woman comes to the Father except by Me.” John 14:6
The Greek word ouden means... not even any man, woman or thing...
Ah another difference between mormonism and Christianity...
In Christianity women are saved too (and black folk)
mormonism is not Christianitry...
"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three God's." (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370.).God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3, 1844)
"The heads of the Gods appointed ONE God for us ..." (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372)
"Long before you were born a program was developed by your creators...The principal personalities in this great drama were Elohim, perfect in wisdom, judgement, and person, and two sons, Lucifer and Jehovah." (Spencer W. Kimball, Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, pp. 32-33).
It is readily apparent from these scriptures that there was a war in heaven in which Christ and Satan (Lucifer) fought against each other, and that there were followers of each. Satan was defeated and cast out along with his angels or followers. Where were all these followers, and who were they? The answer is that they were us. Christ and Satan and their followers warred in a heaven that pre-existed this earth and mortal existence. All of us lived in this heavenly spiritual realm before we were born with physical bodies on the earth. Christ was begotten of the Father, as were all of us, including Lucifer, who was a Son of the Morning. ... Since both Christ and Lucifer were born of the Father, they are brothers in a spiritual sense, as all of us are brothers and sisters in that sense. (LDS teaching regarding Joseph Smiths, Pearl of Great Price: Book of Moses 4:1-4)
"The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were Mormons (Jedediah Grant, Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 346).
"Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee...We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into relation whereby he could see his seed [children] before he was crucified (Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 82).
"These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 546-547).
"We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father, and so on, from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another still more ancient, until our minds are wearied and lost in the multiplicity of generations and successive worlds, and as a last resort, we wonder in our minds, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and the first father was begotten. But why does man seek for a first, when revelation informs him that God's works are without beginning? (Lds apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 132, 1853)
That last one from Pratt should be easy enough for you to disagree with, since it is an absolute contradiction to what God teaches in the Tanakh and New Testament. But I will bet you cannpt even disavow that heresy! Being caught in the cesspool of a cult is tough to realize while in it, drowning in blasphemies and heresies.
Ampu,
What a sweet, and tender man you are. You certainly temper your words, and I appreciate that so much in you.
I KNOW you think I am confused. I am so sorry you believe that. I am not confused. I am sincere, and have a certain knowledge as to what has transpired in my life. I was taught by loving parents how and to Whom to pray. My parents belonged to a dear, little church “The Trinity United Church of Christ” in a tiny town. My parents taught by example, to trust in the Lord, and acknowledge His hand in our lives.
I taught Sunday School. I loved my Pastors, I have always, ALWAYS loved the Bible. My mother sat me on her knee, and read Bible stories to me through out my childhood. I know the Bible better than some people, but not perfectly. This I freely admit.
You and I could/will discuss our beliefs as often as you wish. It is a priviliege (sp) to do so, for I love the Lord with all my heart and soul. I know you do TOO! I feel your sweet spirit.
So, lets proceed.
I wish to take each item, one at a time, and explain. Since it’s almost midnight here, in Texas, I may have to do this over several hours tomorrow too.
You said: “built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself. Eph 2:20
Only HE determines when His written Word is added to. He doesnt tell us His schedule in advance.”
So true. When Joseph Smith was in turmoil with the different sects of religious discussions, he took the works of James, and sought knowledge from the Greatest Source - that of God. You say he was decieved. I say that he saw what he said he saw, and never denied it. Here he was, a 14 year old boy, who shared his spiritual experience with pastors, and learned men. And they dismissed him as “from the Devil.” Now, these men of God were trained, and knowledgable in the doctrine. But they clashed with each other as to which of their dogmas were completely, and totally correct. They decided, immediately, that this sincere young man, was a lier. (sp) (can’t seem to type tonight or spell)
I say, Heavenly Father arranged for this nation, the United States of America, to be founded on totally Christian principles. The Bible was it’s foundation. Our leaders reverenced the principles taught there in. There are so many stories/history to testify to God’s tender mercies to this nation, and its building.
Why? So that a righteous land might be available for Him to restore precious truths that had been passed along over 1600 years. Christians were and are still His. He loves us. His Son, Jesus Christ died for us. His Grace is sufficient for us, as long as we follow His example, and truly try to throw ourselves on His mercy.
If God prepared this nation, so that men could be free to choose, according to their consciousness, then I believe He could also RESTORE those parts that had been lost over the years.
Why do ministers and Pastors receive payment for teaching the Gospel?
Why were different congregations, who professed love for God, and His Son, so determined to prove each other wrong, and if I didn’t believe exactly as they did, then I surely would go to Hell?
Why were infants baptized? If the Savior was baptized, in the river Jordan, to prove the correct way to enter the Kingdom, He being perfect, the Lamb of God, they why is there such discussion, and sometimes little regard for the ordinance of baptism. Some say it’s OK. Some say it’s not really actually necessary. Some say babies go to Hell if their not baptized.
I was taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ, by Elders who had/have authroity to do so. They did not call themselves. They were called by those who had authority to do so. My son even now, preaches the restored Gospel in Mexico. I rejoice that he has dedicated two years in the service of his fellow man. He doesn’t smoke, drink, sleep around, do drugs. He is an honourable young man you would be proud to call your son.
I am not mistaken with regards to what I believe. I am sincere, and know what I believe is true. For I have seriously considered, prayed, lived each day, to the best of my ability, to see what fruits my belief would give.
The Savior, Jesus Christ lives. He loves me.
God knows our world is full of sin and evil, people blinded, lost, and they know not where to turn.
I believe the end is near, that the Savior will return. Do not you think, that perhaps, God loves us so very much, that He might, maybe, perhaps, love us as much as before the Savior? I do. He called Moses by a burning bush. I know he called Joseph Smith.
I know you shudder when you read that, and I am so sorry you feel that way. But know this, I know what I know. I am not belittling any one elses love and devotion to God. He is the Perfect Judge and knows our hearts.
I say, this is a special nation “a City on a Hill” because Heavenly Father has prepared it to be so. We, you and I who love Jesus Christ, and know Him to be our Savior, must stand together to direct the way for the lost souls, who need a refuge from the storm. May I please stand beside you?
“Shame on me? ... I’ll say a prayer for you tonight, but with your attitude, I may get smacked by God for asking that His mercy be extended to you.”
Thank you for your prayers on my behalf. I doubt very much that God will smack you because you ask that he extend mercy to me. You see, Jesus Christ died for all of us. He teaches us that we must forgive. If we refuse to forgive, then we deny that Christ has the power to forgive everyone.
I still say shame on you. Your understanding is the world’s understanding of Joseph Smith. You think he was a sham. That’s your choice. Believe whom you will. Were your sources written by godly men? Nd, yes, I say that men corrupted the church. It was an inevitable apostasy, and the restoration was necessary to re-establish truths that had been lost and perverted over many years.
That does not mean EVERYTHING the Christian churches preached was wrong. No, the Bible is proof that God watched over those who loved HIM. What a wondrous miracle it is, and precious.
But, your pride blinds you to the truth of the Book of Mormon. I wonder what particular parts of the Bible you claim to be wrong, or have you even read it with a true intent. I think perhaps not.
You made up your mind by following truthless testimonies, lies, and perversions of truth. You are free to do so.
I know your claims to know Joseph Smith was a fraud. You spew horrible lies, because you want to believe them.
You’re like those learned men, who believe they are wise, but are blinded by their pride. Perhaps praying, studying and being humble would help your attitude towards Joseph Smith. I pray for you. The Lord said to pray for those who hate and despitefully use you. Pray for our enemies, and those who would throw you into prison. If they demand your coat, give them your coat and cloak. If they demand you walk a mile, walk two.
Good night, and have a good weekend.
Godzilla,
I’ve read your profile. I admire you. You have a fine mind, and are sincere in your posts.
Joseph Smith was no false prophet. The lies that people wrote about him are just that, lies.
Joshua 6:1-5 you’re right, I blew it.
However, do you believe that God will not or does not talk to His people whenever He chooses? I do. I know He can do whatsoever He chooses to do, whether other people believe it or not.
Shall we decide that if we don’t like the particular person who is speaking for god, therefore we don’t have to follow what he says?
Are you so sure of YOUR knowledge, that you don’t need to get on your knees, be humble, and ASK God if something is true or not?
I got on my knees. I know that the LDS church is hated, and it will only get worse. Too bad we can’t stand together, without throwing rocks at each other.
You know, if we are divided, we cannot stand. But I say, if we choose to stand with God, nothing can destroy us.
If God could speak in the past, I say He can speak today.
You remark: “And a fickle ‘god’ mormons have. Adam-God doctrine now non-doctrine for example. Which prophet to believe? Are they not the mouthpieces of God. Did ‘god’ have taught that he was Adam? Then why did ‘god’ change his mind later and say he wasn’t. Either young was a false prophet or the latter was - the cannot BOTH be correct on the doctrine. And what of the mormon ‘god’ -seriously confused as to his identity or an out and out liar. “
Your words are not clear to me. If you ask which prophet to believe. I say, believe the one who is speaking right now, for I live right now.
Did God tell Abraham to sacrifice his son? Did Abraham go do it? If God told Abraham to sacrifice his son, and then stopped him, according to your interpretation, Abraham should have ignored the Angel, and completed his assigned task.
God teaches us line upon line, and precept upon precept. Here a little, and there a little, according to our ability to comprehend.
You mock the church’s history of pologemy. (sp)
OK. God gave us a celestial law. It had been allowed in the past. He told certain people to do it again. If you have read any of Joseph Smiths or Brigham Youngs accounts of their receiving this commandment, you would know that it was a terrible thing to them. They delayed implimenting it. Read their accounts. Less than 10 percent of the church were ever authorized to practice it, and there are many accounts about it’s difficulty. When the US Congress decided to make a law against (they who were so WISE), the prophet was told through revelation to abandon it. I personally think that the US Government was so wicked then, as it is now, that they didn’t care at all about marriage, they wanted to take away what little property the Church had.
So, God in HIS WISDOM, knowing that the church needed their property to grow, and teach the whole world about Restored Truths, He commanded the Prophet to dis-continue the practice. God is much wiser that mere man.
There were many prophets before Noah, and the people wouldn’t listen. God removed all prophets but Noah, and he was commanded to still teach and warn the people. But, like people today, prophets are called all sorts of names, while the people laugh, sing, marry and give in marriage. The rains still came didn’t they, whether the people listened and climbed on board, or choose to drown.
Have a good weekend Godzilla. I would rather not throw rocks, cause I live in a glass house. However, I stand firm in my committment to Jesus Christ. Mock Him if you choose.
“Dont you feel blessed to have me to teach you ???”
No, not particularly. But have a nice nite anyway.
What a horrible thing to read, after all the flowery words defending the LDS teachings.
If a LDS has a commitment to Jesus Christ, which one is it?
If one is truely LDS, you have a Jesus Christ that is different than the Biblical Jesus.
It's taught exactly that way by your organization: Jesus has a Father (Heavenly Father in Mormon lingo) who had a father who had a father.
That is not the Biblical Jesus.
The Mormon Jesus has a brother called Satan, the Biblical Jesus does not.
How strange that your very words inferring that someone who believes in the Jesus of the Bible that they are mocking Jesus, when it is your words that degrade Christiainty by co-opting the Biblical Jesus because the LDS Jesus is a false god.
You appear to have chosen to mock Jesus Christ while accusing another of doing so.
No matter how many times I post AUTHENTIC MORMON WRITINGS, LDS members keep wanting to call them 'propaganda'. OH well, I try do (thanks, Yoda!), and WON'T give up.
No matter how many times I post AUTHENTIC MORMON WRITINGS, LDS members keep wanting to call them 'propaganda'. OH well, I try do (thanks, Yoda!), and WON'T give up.
Is MOCKING scientology (what Tom Cruise holds sacred) ALSO 'satanic' in you view?
Ah... a 'statement'!
VERY easy to say - very hard to produce PROOF for!
To Whom It May Concern:
Press dispatches having been sent for political purposes, from Salt Lake City, which have been widely published, to the effect that the Utah Commission, in their recent report to the Secretary of the Interior, allege that plural marriages are still being solemnized and that forty or more such marriages have been contracted in Utah since last June or during the past year, also that in public discourses the leaders of the Church have taught, encouraged and urged the continuance of the practice of polygamy
I, therefore, as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do hereby, in the most solemn manner, declare that these charges are false. We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory.
One case has been reported, in which the parties allege that the marriage was performed in the Endowment House, in Salt Lake City, in the Spring of 1889, but I have not been able to learn who performed the ceremony; whatever was done in this matter was without my knowledge. In consequence of this alleged occurrence the Endowment House was, by my instructions, taken down without delay.
Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise.
There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates, during the time specified, which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey any such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.
WILFORD WOODRUFF
President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
President Lorenzo Snow offered the following:
I move that, recognizing Wilford Woodruff as the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the only man on the earth at the present time who holds the keys of the sealing ordinances, we consider him fully authorized by virtue of his position to issue the Manifesto which has been read in our hearing, and which is dated September 24th, 1890, and that as a Church in General Conference assembled, we accept his declaration concerning plural marriages as authoritative and binding.
The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous.
Salt Lake City, Utah, October 6, 1890.
Hebrews 11:35-40
35. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36. Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37. They were stoned ; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated-- 38. the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. |
~ Wilford Woodruff, 4th LDS President
It appears that you do not AGREE with the many things that have been SHOWN in this thread, and countless others, that the MORMON religious Organization has PUBLISHED and TAUGHT - with NO retractions of past statements.
If you do NOT agree with them, and cannot DEFEND them, then why are you a MORMON?
Can't you worship GOD anywhere?
Hello!
Do you not remember the LEVITES?
Today, there are as many as 100 organizations claiming to be a part of the Latter Day Saint movement, most centered in Utah or Missouri. Most regard their own group, however small, to be the only legitimate Christian church. Most of these organizations are very small, but overall, but the second largest denomination, the Community of Christ, reports over 200,000 members.
HUH?
Is this a NEW teaching of MORMONism?
So... what did these Elders 'teach' you that was DIFFERENT from what your parents and The Trinity United Church of Christ taught you?
Heck; I wonder which parts are wrong according to the Prophets of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints!
I've NEVER seen a list; have you?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.