Posted on 01/06/2011 2:31:49 PM PST by Paragon Defender
BY: Orson Scott Card
"I asked my priest," he said, "and he told me that Mormons are a cult."
Setting aside the obvious riposte ("What did you think your priest would tell you, that Mormonism was true Christianity as restored by God to living prophets?"), I think it's worth considering just what we mean by "cult" and seeing whether it applies to the Mormon Church.
Cult as Bad Word
Anti-Mormons use "cult" the way gay activists use "homophobe"--as an ad hominem epithet hurled to try to silence any persuasive opponent whose ideas can't be countered on their merits.
When used this way, "cult" just means "religion I want you to fear so much you won't listen to them." Or even, "religion I want you to hate so much that you will remove it from the list of churches that deserve constitutional protection."
But just as "homophobe" has a core meaning (someone with a pathological fear of homosexuality to the degree that it interferes with his life), so also with "cult." The only reason it works as name-calling is because there really are religious groups that do--and should--scare us.
There are real examples of what we mean by cults: Jim Jones' group that destroyed itself in mass murder and suicide in Guyana, or those sneaker-wearing folks who killed themselves to join aliens approaching behind a comet. And even though the Branch Davidians may not have been as monstrous as they were depicted in the media, they still clearly fall within what we mean by that word.
What do they have in common?
Charismatic Founder. Cults gather around charismatic individuals who are the sole source of truth to their followers.
Exploitation. The leader enriches himself through the financial contributions of the members, or gathers personal power that he uses to exploit members in other ways to benefit himself. If the group survives the leader's death, it remains a cult if his successors continue that exploitation.
Automatons. The members are discouraged from thinking for themselves, and, insofar as possible, are turned into unquestioning "obedience machines."
Withdrawal and Isolation. Perhaps because exploitation and obedience are easiest to maintain when the ordinary world can't offer its distractions and attractions, cults tend to withdraw physically, seeking ever greater isolation. This is often used as part of the conversion process, to keep the prospective member from hearing counterarguments. The gathering of money to help the poor or pay for meetinghouses or publications can be called "exploitation." The natural desire of converts to live according to the teachings of their leader can look like lockstep blind obedience to those who live a different way. And if outsiders persecute the new religion, it is only natural that adherents will want to band together and get away, if only for a few hours at a time, to be able to practice their religion in peace. All religions have a body of teachings that becomes a lens through which the believers see the world around them. To those who don't believe, the lens seems to be a distortion of reality--though of course, those unbelievers are merely distorting reality their own way, through their own lens. No one sees reality without passing the data through the lens of their own preconceptions. All religions also form a community, however loosely organized, of like-minded believers who set the standard of correctness. Whether that standard is rigid or relaxed, those who cross it are expelled from the community and are treated as heretics, apostates, or infidels. Severe treatment of heretics can be found from the lowliest cult to the largest church, from the most rigid sect to "open"-minded, post-religious academia. You have to get fairly close to a new religion in order to see whether it is acting like a cult or like a religion. Most of those who hurl the word "cult," however, do not bother to get close. And those who do are often so grimly determined to attack that they distort all evidence in order to support the charge. Exploitation? As for exploitative leadership, this charge is absolutely false and always has been. Joseph Smith passed the money test with flying colors: He died poor and in debt, not because of profligate spending, but because any money that flowed into his hands flowed right back out again in attempts to benefit the saints and build the church. In the years since, a handful of church offices have become salaried, but the salaries are merely enough to sustain normal family life. The perks of wealth are shunned even by those church leaders who were rich before being called to one of those rare salaried offices. And church leaders constantly struggle to eliminate the sycophancy, the cult of personality, and the general "sucking up" that are bound to arise in any hierarchical organization. Automatons? Those who have actually lived in a Mormon ward--and especially those who have tried to lead a group of Mormons in any kind of activity--can all affirm one truth: Mormons may well be the most stubborn, independent-minded group of people ever assembled as a religious community. Joseph Smith received a revelation that established the only style of leadership that actually works in the Mormon church (or, in the long run, anywhere): You can only lead by persuasion, by love, by patience, by your own willingness to learn from those you lead. Every now and then, some local Mormon leader will try to give orders or attempt to manipulate people into doing things his way. But he very quickly learns that the more he does that, the less obedient we Mormons become. Far from being robots, most of us Mormons are, by inclination and by doctrine, determined to make up our own minds about everything. It's a core doctrine of Mormonism that each member of the church is personally and individually responsible for their own relationship with God. Isolation? As for the cultish trait of isolating converts from any other influence, or brainwashing them till they can't think for themselves, our method of teaching would-be proselytes is the opposite. We usually teach them in their own homes. Our missionaries come for a little while and then leave them to themselves to read, ponder, and pray. We counter the attacks of anti-Mormons by telling the truth about our beliefs and practices, not by trying to cut off contact with our opponents. Far from becoming isolated, a new convert to Mormonism is taught to be more respectful and loving to parents, spouse, children, and other family members and friends. They usually do better at their careers and education, and if withdrawal takes place it is because their new Mormon lifestyle and beliefs are rejected by their family or friends. Indeed, calling Mormonism a cult is usually an attempt to get people to behave like robots, blindly obeying the command that they reject Mormonism without any independent thought. Kettles, as they say, calling the pot black. Here's the simplest statement I can make: If Mormonism were a cult, I would know it, and I would not be in it.
It's worth pointing out that there are very few religions of any size or influence that did not begin with a charismatic founder and whose members did not seem, to outsiders, to behave in much the way I've just described. A humble, wise teacher can always be charged with "setting himself up as the sole source of truth" merely because he offers any unusual idea.
How Does Mormonism Measure Up?
Joseph Smith was a charismatic leader, but he was murdered 156 years ago. Nowadays, we have leaders who, while sometimes gifted at communication, are rarely of the dramatic, movement-founding type. Indeed, I feel safe in saying that the majority in my lifetime have been rather dull and gray, and they are followed far more because of their office than because of any personal charisma.
Kettles and Pots
On all these points, I daresay that the Mormon church is less cult-like than many of the religions that delight in calling us one.
“The LORD Jesus Christ who is God when speaking of His Bride, the Body of Christ, His Body as He is the Head of the Church, said, “on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18”
The Savior, Jesus Christ was speaking to Simon Barjona (Peter). He (the Savior) had just asked Peter who he thought He was. Simon said, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered and said, “Blessed art thou, Jimon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” meaning that personal, spiritual knowledge/revelation had revealed the truth to Peter. Revelation will always stand against the gates of hell. The Bride of Christ is the Church, but can become corrupted by evil, designing, fools. That’s why revelation (personal and for phrophets) is so important. When men wandered away from the truth, as the church did, and apostasised as it did, the spirit withdrew of revelation was lost. Men changed the docterine, emperors called bishops whom he determined were worthy of attention, and THEY made changes. Man made changes to the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Revelation from our Father who art in Heaven comes through prayer, study, pondering and more humble prayer. One should not think they have all the answers when praying. One should be willing to listen, learn, and obey.
May God Grant you Wisdom and Peace
“Or maybe you are just being passive aggressive.” Perhaps I am, I’ve not spoken to a shrink lately to have someone label me.
However, if someone asks me my opinion, I rather assume they honestly want to hear my opinion. So, I tell them my opinion. If people disrespect my opinion, and refuse to even consider my answer because I follow a different religious path than they do (and they think theirs is better than mine), well, then I think “contention” is useless. I do try and participate in these “discussions,” but only until I sense disrespect. It seems to me, as with political discussions, there are a lot of preconceived notions, and little civility left today.
What say you to that?
“You & Resty have both told us something today is or isn’t of Satan — & then have proceeded to link arms with him in that process! “
As you, meaning those who call LDS a cult, have told US that we’re cultists. What’s so good for the goose is also good for the gander. Wouldn’t you say.
No matter how I try to explain my beliefs, it seems to always fall so short. OH well, I try, and give up. Then I try again, and give up. It is a challenge to participate. I can’t speak for Resty, but I speak from my own experience, that’s all I can do.
You seem to feel comfortable to mock what I hold sacred. That’s where Satan comes in. So, what do you expect of me? I’m listening.
bring'em young taught as doctrine that Adam was God
He also taught blood atonement as doctrine
Polygamy was called an 'eternal' principle, yet when the gov't was breathing down the prophet's neck, this mormon 'god' gave another revelation - oopsie, my bad.
smith taught that Jehovah was the name of heavenly father - today mormons teach it is Jesus' name. Yet if any would supposedly know what they were talking about, smith who 'communed with Jehovah' would know who he was.
Thats just scratching the surface - how about translating a common pagan prayer scroll into something completely different. How about 'translating' fake plates (admitted by the forger and scientific tests) into another history of the americas? Is the Egyptian God "Min" really heavenly father?
Lots of mormon revelations - lots of error.
The Bride of Christ is the Church, but can become corrupted by evil, designing, fools.
_____________________________________________
Apparantly not kid...
Even “evil, designing, fools” like Joey Smith and Briggie Young and their thugs could not corrupt the Church that the LORD Jesus built...
When God builds something it stays built until He chooses to dismantle it...
and God has no plans to dismantle His Bride...
The LORD Jesus Christ is coming back for a Bride who has lasted for 2,000 years....who is withour spot or wrinkle, Holy and blameless. Ephesians 5:27
One that even the gates of Hell could never prevail against...
You better make up your cottin pickin mind kid now while theres still time
Once you are dead its too late...
that theres only One God...
and theres only one church...made up of churches/denominations
Whether the denomination is Presbyterian, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Coptic Orthodox etc
We are all Christians...saved by grace from our sins...
bought and paid for by the Blood that the LORD Jesus Christ, the unblemished Lamb of God, shed ON THE CROSS when He died ON THE CROSS....
all members of His Body, the Bride of Christ...
and He the ONLY head over us...
and NOBODY not even an evil deluded fool occultist adulterer blasphemer like Joey Smith will EVER corrupt us or snatch us out of His hand...John 10:28, 29
“If Christ’s Church had continued, the Bible would not have ended at approximately AD 100, but rather apostolic epistles would have continued through the ages ...””
And you call me confused!!
Tell me what is wrong with the fact that NO apostolic epistles have been written after AD 100? To me, that indicates loss of revelation to church leaders. The Church became to be lead by mere men, without authority to speak for the Lord. They were tricked, beguiled and fell prey to their own natural weaknesses.
This is not to say that members of the Church were wicked. They were following to the best of their ability, the leaders appointed to be their shepherds. The people who followed Christ, and loved Him, and believed as best they could, I think, were loved in return by the Savior. They certainly will/would be recognized by the Savior, and will reap their reward through His grace.
What the statement is talking about is the “official Church” who lost their authority through sin, and the devious works of the Devil. The Institution became corrupt. The people followed the truth as they understood it.
Call me arrogant, call me what ever you wish to label me. Call my beliefs “LDS fertilizer”, and call a Prophet of
God “Joe Smith.” It truly does NOT matter. Fools mock, and they shall mourn. I am sharing MY knowledge with people here on Free Republic. You are free to have YOUR opinion, as well as I have mine.
I am amazed that you have such arrogance as to ask an opinion, or for an explanation, and then consider my voice one of a demon, spittling forth from a “faithful, but lost mormon” and that I presume to tell God how He has failed to do what the lost mormon expects God should do”.
Your reliance on “The Bible, A Bible, We have a Bible, and we Need no more Bible” is close minded, and foolish. Who are YOU to determine that God doe NOT NEED to speak to a prophet any more.
HE spoke to Noah. Does our day need a prophet any less. I say NO. The human race is God’s greatest creation, and He will nurture and guide it as HE sees fit. Shame on YOU!
Meanwhile if that “god” of yours is the mormon man-evolved/progressed-into-god he has no wisdom or peace to grant to anyone...
I prefer the wisom and peace that passes all understanding that comes from the Christian God, the LORD Jesus Christ...
“Polygamy was called an ‘eternal’ principle, yet when the gov’t was breathing down the prophet’s neck, this mormon ‘god’ gave another revelation - oopsie, my bad.”
What part of a Prophet receiving revelation do you NOT understand?
God commanded Joshua to march around Jericho six times, in complete silence. He did it.
Then God told Joshua to march around Jericho a seventh time, but at the end to have all the Children of Israel to SHOUT. Same God, Same Prophet, Different command.
Joshua did what God commanded each time. Because the seventh time was a different command, was it a False God or False Prophet, or False Command.
Noooooooooo. Circumstances change. Obedience to God is what is important. Knowing who is a Prophet, and who is just a man who weakly changes his mind, and fears man, that’s the test of faith, wisdom and love of God.
“When God builds something it stays built until He chooses to dismantle it...”
He chose to dismantle it, because revelation STOPPED. The institution of the “Church” became corrupt. Sad day, when men decided they knew more than God.
“and NOBODY not even an evil deluded fool occultist adulterer blasphemer like Joey Smith will EVER corrupt us or snatch us out of His hand...John 10:28, 29”
Corrupted by your own arrogance, you feel no need for humility or charity. Who is your neighbor, and how do you treat them?
“I prefer the wisom and peace that passes all understanding that comes from the Christian God, the LORD Jesus Christ...”
I disagree, for He has given me peace, and knowledge, and supports my every breath. I follow Christ. Be still and know that He is God.
More appropriately, what part of smith is a false prophet do you NOT understand.
God commanded Joshua to march around Jericho six times, in complete silence. He did it. Then God told Joshua to march around Jericho a seventh time, but at the end to have all the Children of Israel to SHOUT. Same God, Same Prophet, Different command.
You must have been asleep in seminary when this was covered. Did God give 7 different revelations. NO. Incase you haven't opened your kjv - go to Joshua, chapter 6. Verses 1-5 cover this SINGULAR revelation.
Noooooooooo. Circumstances change.
Well, given your premise has already fallen as flat as the walls. . . . .
Obedience to God is what is important.
And a fickle 'god' mormons have. Adam-God doctrine now non-doctrine for example. Which prophet to believe? Are they not the mouthpieces of God. Did 'god' have taught that he was Adam? Then why did 'god' change his mind later and say he wasn't. Either young was a false prophet or the latter was - the cannot BOTH be correct on the doctrine. And what of the mormon 'god' -seriously confused as to his identity or an out and out liar.
Knowing who is a Prophet, and who is just a man who weakly changes his mind, and fears man, that’s the test of faith, wisdom and love of God.
So are you telling me that President Wilford Woodruff, prophet of the only true church, failed in his test of faith in canceling an "ETERNAL" commandment of God? If that is the case - why do mormons today still sustain this false and errant act and 'doctrine' of antipolygamy? His revelation a false revelation - he then is a false prophet.
Fickle that mormon 'god'
You imagined prophet was a sexual predator of married women, several married women. He was a liar and a peepstone conman. He claimed to translate Hieroglyphic and has been proven to be lying, yet you and those just as lost believe this conman, servant of lies was a prophet of God. He was perhaps a servant of the Mormon god, the one Smith claimed was once a man like us and now sits 'enthroned yonder heaven' ... but that is an imaginary god that dupes stake their eternal destiny upon and become so bold to support that they presume to tell God that His Holy Spirit revelation work stopped with the death of the last Apostle.
It is sad really, that LDS cannot comprehend God's Holy Spirit continues to reveal His plan for Salvation through faith in Jesus The Christ. Perhaps that is the source of your blasphemies, you don't want to acknowledge that a man-made institution is not capable of doing what God's Holy Spirit does daily with tens of millions through His Word manifested in the Testament handed to us from so long ago and kept alive for 2000 years by God's Holy Spirit touching the individual humble heart.
Shame on me? ... I'll say a prayer for you tonight, but with your attitude, I may get smacked by God for asking that His mercy be extended to you.
Now yellowroses ... you wrote some things we should talk about. You are a tender-hearted soul, which I appreciate. Please don’t misinterpret anything here as harsh. It is not given that way.
“And you call me confused!!”
... I think you are indeed confused dear friend.
“Tell me what is wrong with the fact that NO apostolic epistles have been written after AD 100?”
... yellow, there is nothing wrong with what you just described. God worked through His chosen Apostles to lay a foundation stone for the Church. “Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself.” Eph 2:20
Only HE determines when His written Word is added to. He doesn’t tell us His schedule in advance.
“To me, that indicates loss of revelation to church leaders.”
... revelation does not come from church leaders, but directly as His Spirit moved on them. It also, isn’t our call friend. It remains His call. Our own opinions are interesting, but not determinative.
“The Church became to be lead by mere men, without authority to speak for the Lord. They were tricked, beguiled and fell prey to their own natural weaknesses.”
... The Church is never led by mere men. It is always led by men who are guided by God. At times they fail. He has promised to never lead them or forsake them. He has promised to always be there. He has promised the very gates of hell shall not be able to withstand the church. Even when men are tricked, He is not. Church leaders are mere men in position of authority, representing God. Where there are people, there are always problems. Surely, you know this yellowroses.
... In every age, in some significant way, men have failed. Church history shows us that in every age, the church got some things wrong. God never has. There has never been a time He did less than fulfill every promise He made. No worries mate. His faithfulness is new every morning and He will complete what He determined.
... In I Kings 19:18, in Israels’ darkest hour under the ministry of Elijah, when it appeared everyone turned from God, God tells Elijah that He had reserved for himself 7,000 men who had not bowed their knee to Baal. Elijah didn’t know this at all. From his limited and discouraged human perspective, HE was completely alone. He wasn’t. Not by a long shot!
... In the entire history of the church, there has never been a time where God has not reserved men to Himself who have not bowed the knee to Baal. The Apostle Paul reiterates this in Romans 11.
... Praise be to Him! Never because church leaders are great. They are always fallible. It is only because God is sovereign and loving and omnipotent. He brings it to pass.
“What the statement is talking about is the “official Church” who lost their authority through sin, and the devious works of the Devil. The Institution became corrupt. The people followed the truth as they understood it.”
... Yet God has always fulfilled His promises. God has always preserved the Church. The Holy Spirit has always indwelled every believe.
“Call me arrogant, call me what ever you wish to label me.”
... I would pick “incredibly sincere, but taken in by a false claim of a false religion”.
... This claim of apostacy that ended the church cannot be proven by any objective standard. You believe it sincerely, but without facts. Church history does not bear it out. I know this because I studied church history, reading too many thousand pages in seminary. What you’ve written, and your conclusion, which is what you were taught by mormonism, is simply, factually wrong. It is the meme mormonism has used to try to justify its existence as a restoration. You cannot restore something that never disappeared. God Himself renews us each morning.
“You are free to have YOUR opinion, as well as I have mine.”
... I am not interested in any woman’s or man’s opinion. I am interested in God’s word, the Bible. It is His opinion that matters alone. The clay cannot say to the Potter...
“Your reliance on “The Bible, A Bible, We have a Bible, and we Need no more Bible” is close minded, and foolish. Who are YOU to determine that God doe NOT NEED to speak to a prophet any more.”
... May I ask, who are you to choose a book, any book, that contradicts the Bible? What right do you have to contradict God’s Word? Who are you to determine that God spoke again and created another book? Who are you to set aside His revealed word and substitute any other book in its place? Who are you to be so closed minded and foolish? Who are you to insist God must speak now? Who are you to insist on the presence of a prophet at all times?
... those are all decisions God makes. We are not in His place.
... Israel insisted on a king like the other nations and got just what they asked for. A lousy king! Saul.
... Truthfully, yellowroses, neither you, nor I can demand God do what we wish. That is silly.
“HE spoke to Noah. Does our day need a prophet any less.”
... Only God can determine when He wants to use a prophet to speak. There have been vast periods of history where He has been silent.
“I say NO.”
... yet in this matter, your opinion and preferences and my own are trumped by His, dear one.
“The human race is God’s greatest creation, and He will nurture and guide it as HE sees fit.”
... indeed, yellowroses. He ALWAYS does, despite the claims you made earlier that He hadn’t done so for the church.
blessings,
ampu
The LORD Jesus Christ is God...
The Second Person of the Trinity...
The Lamb of God...
The Word of God...
The Alpha and the Omega...
Ther Beginning anhd the End....
The Head of His Church which is the Bride of Chtist...
We the Christians are His Body...
We are His Bride...
We the Christians are the church that He built to last forever...and the church has lasted these 2.000 years...
and as He promised...Because God is not a man that He should lie...
Not even the gates of hell have been able to prevail against the church that God built...in 2,000 years...
and NOBODY not even an evil deluded fool occultist adulterer blasphemer like Joey Smith will EVER corrupt us or snatch us out of His hand...John 10:28, 29
The LORD Jesus Christ who is God built His church...
Nana: When God builds something it stays built until He chooses to dismantle it...
Yellow: He chose to dismantle it,
____________________________________________
I could care less what you think your mormon god may have tried to do...
After all the mormon god was just a man who progressed...a progressive...
But the LORD God of the Christian Bible is not a man that He should lie...
\The LORD Jersus Christ promised med and the other Christians that even Satan could not dismantle, destroy, steal His church and it has been so...
Continually for 2,000 years...
and the demon possessed Joe Smith who hated God and was a liar a thief a murderer an occultist and a convicted criminal and stole other mens wives in adultery and invented his own pagan religion in opposition to the God of the Christian Bible never could corrupt or dismantle the Bride of Christ...
The arrogant anti-Christian Joe Smith boasted that he was greater than the LORD Jesus Christ and so the LORD Jesus Christ dismantled Joe Smith...
Any questions ???
Sad day, when men decided they knew more than God.
________________________________________________
Oh I dunno...
Its not above God’s pay grade...
Joe Smith was chicken feed when he tried it...
God had no trouble destroying the hedonistic false prophet Joe Smith when Joe “decided he knew more than God”...
Joe wanted to be just like Mohammad...
Joe got what Mo got ...six feet of dirt...
Any questions...
“Any questions ???”
My questions have better answers. The truth is clear. Worship whatever doctrine you wish. You can give no substance with your rants.
Have a great weekend, dear.
“and NOBODY not even an evil deluded fool occultist adulterer blasphemer like Joey Smith will EVER corrupt us or snatch us out of His hand...John 10:28, 29”
Only your pride and blindness.
Have a wonderful weekend, Lovey
Who is your neighbor, and how do you treat them?
___________________________________________________
Well kid the first time I ever met a mormon the mormon destroyed my belongings, turned our co-workers against me and ordered our boss to fire me...
And attempted to make my life a living Hell for the next 6 weeks...
I got the “treatment”
Hows that for neighborly ???
Those “family values” make you proud ???
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