Now yellowroses ... you wrote some things we should talk about. You are a tender-hearted soul, which I appreciate. Please don’t misinterpret anything here as harsh. It is not given that way.
“And you call me confused!!”
... I think you are indeed confused dear friend.
“Tell me what is wrong with the fact that NO apostolic epistles have been written after AD 100?”
... yellow, there is nothing wrong with what you just described. God worked through His chosen Apostles to lay a foundation stone for the Church. “Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself.” Eph 2:20
Only HE determines when His written Word is added to. He doesn’t tell us His schedule in advance.
“To me, that indicates loss of revelation to church leaders.”
... revelation does not come from church leaders, but directly as His Spirit moved on them. It also, isn’t our call friend. It remains His call. Our own opinions are interesting, but not determinative.
“The Church became to be lead by mere men, without authority to speak for the Lord. They were tricked, beguiled and fell prey to their own natural weaknesses.”
... The Church is never led by mere men. It is always led by men who are guided by God. At times they fail. He has promised to never lead them or forsake them. He has promised to always be there. He has promised the very gates of hell shall not be able to withstand the church. Even when men are tricked, He is not. Church leaders are mere men in position of authority, representing God. Where there are people, there are always problems. Surely, you know this yellowroses.
... In every age, in some significant way, men have failed. Church history shows us that in every age, the church got some things wrong. God never has. There has never been a time He did less than fulfill every promise He made. No worries mate. His faithfulness is new every morning and He will complete what He determined.
... In I Kings 19:18, in Israels’ darkest hour under the ministry of Elijah, when it appeared everyone turned from God, God tells Elijah that He had reserved for himself 7,000 men who had not bowed their knee to Baal. Elijah didn’t know this at all. From his limited and discouraged human perspective, HE was completely alone. He wasn’t. Not by a long shot!
... In the entire history of the church, there has never been a time where God has not reserved men to Himself who have not bowed the knee to Baal. The Apostle Paul reiterates this in Romans 11.
... Praise be to Him! Never because church leaders are great. They are always fallible. It is only because God is sovereign and loving and omnipotent. He brings it to pass.
“What the statement is talking about is the “official Church” who lost their authority through sin, and the devious works of the Devil. The Institution became corrupt. The people followed the truth as they understood it.”
... Yet God has always fulfilled His promises. God has always preserved the Church. The Holy Spirit has always indwelled every believe.
“Call me arrogant, call me what ever you wish to label me.”
... I would pick “incredibly sincere, but taken in by a false claim of a false religion”.
... This claim of apostacy that ended the church cannot be proven by any objective standard. You believe it sincerely, but without facts. Church history does not bear it out. I know this because I studied church history, reading too many thousand pages in seminary. What you’ve written, and your conclusion, which is what you were taught by mormonism, is simply, factually wrong. It is the meme mormonism has used to try to justify its existence as a restoration. You cannot restore something that never disappeared. God Himself renews us each morning.
“You are free to have YOUR opinion, as well as I have mine.”
... I am not interested in any woman’s or man’s opinion. I am interested in God’s word, the Bible. It is His opinion that matters alone. The clay cannot say to the Potter...
“Your reliance on “The Bible, A Bible, We have a Bible, and we Need no more Bible” is close minded, and foolish. Who are YOU to determine that God doe NOT NEED to speak to a prophet any more.”
... May I ask, who are you to choose a book, any book, that contradicts the Bible? What right do you have to contradict God’s Word? Who are you to determine that God spoke again and created another book? Who are you to set aside His revealed word and substitute any other book in its place? Who are you to be so closed minded and foolish? Who are you to insist God must speak now? Who are you to insist on the presence of a prophet at all times?
... those are all decisions God makes. We are not in His place.
... Israel insisted on a king like the other nations and got just what they asked for. A lousy king! Saul.
... Truthfully, yellowroses, neither you, nor I can demand God do what we wish. That is silly.
“HE spoke to Noah. Does our day need a prophet any less.”
... Only God can determine when He wants to use a prophet to speak. There have been vast periods of history where He has been silent.
“I say NO.”
... yet in this matter, your opinion and preferences and my own are trumped by His, dear one.
“The human race is God’s greatest creation, and He will nurture and guide it as HE sees fit.”
... indeed, yellowroses. He ALWAYS does, despite the claims you made earlier that He hadn’t done so for the church.
blessings,
ampu
Ampu,
What a sweet, and tender man you are. You certainly temper your words, and I appreciate that so much in you.
I KNOW you think I am confused. I am so sorry you believe that. I am not confused. I am sincere, and have a certain knowledge as to what has transpired in my life. I was taught by loving parents how and to Whom to pray. My parents belonged to a dear, little church “The Trinity United Church of Christ” in a tiny town. My parents taught by example, to trust in the Lord, and acknowledge His hand in our lives.
I taught Sunday School. I loved my Pastors, I have always, ALWAYS loved the Bible. My mother sat me on her knee, and read Bible stories to me through out my childhood. I know the Bible better than some people, but not perfectly. This I freely admit.
You and I could/will discuss our beliefs as often as you wish. It is a priviliege (sp) to do so, for I love the Lord with all my heart and soul. I know you do TOO! I feel your sweet spirit.
So, lets proceed.
I wish to take each item, one at a time, and explain. Since it’s almost midnight here, in Texas, I may have to do this over several hours tomorrow too.
You said: “built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself.” Eph 2:20
Only HE determines when His written Word is added to. He doesn’t tell us His schedule in advance.”
So true. When Joseph Smith was in turmoil with the different sects of religious discussions, he took the works of James, and sought knowledge from the Greatest Source - that of God. You say he was decieved. I say that he saw what he said he saw, and never denied it. Here he was, a 14 year old boy, who shared his spiritual experience with pastors, and learned men. And they dismissed him as “from the Devil.” Now, these men of God were trained, and knowledgable in the doctrine. But they clashed with each other as to which of their dogmas were completely, and totally correct. They decided, immediately, that this sincere young man, was a lier. (sp) (can’t seem to type tonight or spell)
I say, Heavenly Father arranged for this nation, the United States of America, to be founded on totally Christian principles. The Bible was it’s foundation. Our leaders reverenced the principles taught there in. There are so many stories/history to testify to God’s tender mercies to this nation, and its building.
Why? So that a righteous land might be available for Him to restore precious truths that had been passed along over 1600 years. Christians were and are still His. He loves us. His Son, Jesus Christ died for us. His Grace is sufficient for us, as long as we follow His example, and truly try to throw ourselves on His mercy.
If God prepared this nation, so that men could be free to choose, according to their consciousness, then I believe He could also RESTORE those parts that had been lost over the years.
Why do ministers and Pastors receive payment for teaching the Gospel?
Why were different congregations, who professed love for God, and His Son, so determined to prove each other wrong, and if I didn’t believe exactly as they did, then I surely would go to Hell?
Why were infants baptized? If the Savior was baptized, in the river Jordan, to prove the correct way to enter the Kingdom, He being perfect, the Lamb of God, they why is there such discussion, and sometimes little regard for the ordinance of baptism. Some say it’s OK. Some say it’s not really actually necessary. Some say babies go to Hell if their not baptized.
I was taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ, by Elders who had/have authroity to do so. They did not call themselves. They were called by those who had authority to do so. My son even now, preaches the restored Gospel in Mexico. I rejoice that he has dedicated two years in the service of his fellow man. He doesn’t smoke, drink, sleep around, do drugs. He is an honourable young man you would be proud to call your son.
I am not mistaken with regards to what I believe. I am sincere, and know what I believe is true. For I have seriously considered, prayed, lived each day, to the best of my ability, to see what fruits my belief would give.
The Savior, Jesus Christ lives. He loves me.
God knows our world is full of sin and evil, people blinded, lost, and they know not where to turn.
I believe the end is near, that the Savior will return. Do not you think, that perhaps, God loves us so very much, that He might, maybe, perhaps, love us as much as before the Savior? I do. He called Moses by a burning bush. I know he called Joseph Smith.
I know you shudder when you read that, and I am so sorry you feel that way. But know this, I know what I know. I am not belittling any one elses love and devotion to God. He is the Perfect Judge and knows our hearts.
I say, this is a special nation “a City on a Hill” because Heavenly Father has prepared it to be so. We, you and I who love Jesus Christ, and know Him to be our Savior, must stand together to direct the way for the lost souls, who need a refuge from the storm. May I please stand beside you?