Napkinists have no trouble believing either, with much the same proof.
Posted on 12/20/2010 8:46:50 AM PST by T Minus Four
On Dec. 23, 1805, as much of the world was preparing to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, another baby boy was born. Like Jesus, this 19th century baby came forth in humble circumstances and in an obscure village.
Though the world didn't know it at the time, the birth of Joseph Smith Jr. would initiate what is arguably the greatest and most far-reaching chain of events in the history of Christianity since the Savior's mortal ministry itself.
That infant would grow up to hold the apostolic office and thus be a special witness of Jesus Christ, the first mortal man on earth with such authority since the deaths of Peter, Paul and other New Testament figures. But Joseph's role would have further significance, he being the man who, under the direction of Jesus Christ, received the keys of the gospel's restoration in latter days and of the prophesied Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. It was a role with transcendent magnitude, fulfilling scriptural prophecy.
Joseph himself would only begin to become aware of its significance himself at age 14, when, in response to a fervent plea for religious guidance, he saw in their glory the Father and the Son.
In subsequent theophanies and other heavenly visitations, the young prophet would receive further divine tutoring.
Visiting Joseph on Sept. 21, 1823, the Book of Mormon prophet Moroni in angelic form quoted a number of biblical passages, among them this verse from Isaiah:
"And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots" (Isaiah 11:1).
Some 15 years later, the Prophet would provide a divinely revealed explanation of this verse in the form of questions and responses recorded today as Doctrine and Covenants 113:1-4: "Who is the Stem of Jesse spoken of in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th verses of the 11th chapter of Isaiah?
"Verily thus saith the Lord: It is the Christ.
"What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the 11th chapter of Isaiah, that should come of the Stem of Jesse?
"Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power."
Commented Elder Bruce R. McConkie of the Quorum of the Twelve, "Are we amiss in saying that the prophet here mentioned is Joseph Smith, to whom the priesthood came, who received the keys of the kingdom, and who raised the ensign for the gathering of the Lord's people in our dispensation?"
Alexander W. Baugh, professor of Church history and doctrine at BYU commented, "On Dec. 9, 1834, Joseph Smith Sr. pronounced a patriarchal blessing on Joseph Smith Jr. wherein he declared that the Prophet was a lineal descendant and birthright heir to the patriarchal fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but more particularly Joseph of Egypt. Furthermore, Brigham Young declared that Joseph Smith was a descendant of Joseph through Ephraim (Journal of Discourses 2:269).
"Additionally, Doctrine and Covenants 113:6 states that the 'root of Jesse' as spoken of in Isaiah 11:10 is 'a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.' Such wording suggests the individual to be none other than Joseph Smith."
Hey, speaking of you, you never answered my question from post 52. I think I was the third one to ask you, too. Do you, or do you not, agree with what’s written in the article posted in the Mormon Times, an official site of the LDS church?
Here's my link and I promise it's not empty.
These three aspects of Mormonism are what I would term the most eggregious, blasphemous infact: First, that Mormonism teaches Jesus was not God with us until the resurrection;
Second, Mormonism teaches that the god they worship was once a man and gained the attributes of godhood in a similar fashion that they believe their jesus gained godhood, by atonement for a whole world; such a false assertion regarding the One God --as God has spoken of Himself-- is clear blasphemy;
Third, Mormonism is founded upon the fundamental lie that Christian Salvation ended on earth with the death of the last Apostle, and was not re-established until Joseph Smith came along, 1700 years later; this directly contradicts what Jesus told His Apostles, and insults the Integrity of God, as if the god Mormons believe in was unable to keep His promises!
One might ask why these are particularly eggregious teachings. Look at the name the LDS have chosen, representing themselves as the Church of Jesus Christ. Mormonism makes this claim while not believing in the Jesus of the Bible, as defined in John's Gospel, to start with.
Once a person sets out to found a new religion but try to cammandeer Christianity in the bargain, there is no other way to establish the false religion without blasphemies. And Mormonism is full of blasphemies, from the assertion that they have a 're-established Melchizedek priesthood' to the assertion that to enter Heaven you will have to have Joseph Smith's approval. There is now ONLY one Melchizedek Priest alive at a time and that is Jesus Christ now alive forever more, so His priestly role is not forfeit to Mormonism.
And the leadership of Mormonism lies. Yes, lies. The recently departed 'prophet' at the head of Mormonism, Gordon B. Hinckley, when asked in a 1990's interview with Time Magazine about the Lorenzo Snow couplet derived from the teachings of Joseph Smith, regarding how god came to be god, stated that he didn't know that they teach that couplet! [The couplet states, in essence 'As we are now, god once was. As god is now we may become.' Not more than 20 months separated that lie and his own assertion of the Snow couplet at the Mormon General Counsel!
So when a Momronism apologist avoids answewring a direct question about Mormonism, knwo that this type of deception is taught to their membership, especially in missionary training. [Reference the Millett lessons on deception linked occasionally at FR from a missionary training class.]
There is no doubt that Mormons (the people individually) are sincere, as illustrated by their mighty effort to behave in the best good fashion they can, doing many good works in communities. But Buddhists are sincere also, and peaceful to a fault, but they are sincerely wrong when they deny the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Mormon doctrine, by holding to a differnt jesus and eschewing the Jesus as described in the Bible wihtout the drek of Joseph Smith interposed, Mormon doctrine is leading away from Salvation through the Grace of God and 'at' the hope 'to be saved after all that they can do.' That is 'another gospel' not the Gospel of Salvation as Paul taught the foolish Galatians regarding their swallowing a different message about God's plan.
“Joseph Smith was a servant of God who received revelations and taught them. He was an apostle of Jesus Christ just as were Peter, John and Paul.”
I will fix this for you Normandy, for clarity’s sake.
“Joseph Smith was a servant of God [opinion] who received revelations [opinion] and taught them [opinion]. He was an apostle [opinion] of Jesus Christ [the created one] just as were Peter, John and Paul [opinion].”
How about you provide some facts, evidence or logic to support your 4 claims, which are simply opinions?
Or we can leave your comments as Normandy’s opinions...
ampu
“Check this link out for an explanation about what was lost, and what was restored:”
The only thing it claims was restored was priesthood authority.
This was never lost. The Church doesn’t have a priesthood, except the priesthood of every believer. The whole thing is made up out of whole cloth.
How can you believe a website that doesn’t answer a question except to make an additional false claim?
One word: subjective feelings.
That’s it. Mormonism rests on a foundation of opinion and subjective feelings. It denies all objective truth God provides in order to distort God’s image (idolatry), distort the gospel of grace (substitute false worthiness), and to extend Satan’s promise (”you shall be as gods”)..
But they feel great!!!!
Napkinists have no trouble believing either, with much the same proof.
Lurkers: Imagine you're enjoying this Christmas season a card game with friends & family...
...Say Uno...
...Or Crazy 8's...a card game involving a trump card.
We're sitting at the card table w/Paragon Defender. He tells us we need to transcend normal trump card games...
...So he pulls out his fancy deck of cards that on the surface seem professionally produced...but somehow conveys a shoddy product. We say, "OK. we'll try our hand at it."
We start playing. The deck he whips out has printed cards that read...
...Mormon scriptural sources...like "Book of Mormon" & "Pearl of Great Price" & "Doctrine & Covenants" & "Book of Abraham"
...+ "Official Lds Church Curricula"
...+ "Lds Priesthood manuals"
...+ "Official Lds Church Pamphlets"
...+ Books authored by Lds General Authorities -- including their "prophets" and "apostles" -- some published by the Lds church; most not
...+ "Journal of Discourses" of public messages & sermons by Lds General Authorities
Each time we play one of the above cards, PD turns to his laptop & prints out a "fresh" card that actually never varies: It's shaped like a spam can. It reads:
"Unofficial Lds Apologetics Web Sites Trump" card -- or what PD calls his, U.L.A.W.S.T. card.
When we ask for an Official copy of the rules of this game that allows him to treat this card as the "final authority" card; he just smiles and reassures us that this is the omnipotent trump card.
"There's nothing," says P.D. "more potent than Lds Apologetics Web site linkages."
"But Brigham says..."
"No...no..no," PD says, printing another spam card for extra emphasis. "This" -- he says with much pride -- "is the ultimate trump card."
"What?"
"We thought," we say, "that the 'Living prophet' was the ultimate trump card for this game? Wasn't this rule #3 of E.T. Benson's 14 'fundamentals'...that a 'living prophet' trumps a dead prophet?' And rule #2 a 'living prophet' trumps Mormon standard scriptures?"
"Yes, E.T. said that," says PD.
"So?"
"Well," PD says...smiling now. "E.T.'s dead."
(Yeah, we know, PD. Did you forget that the SL Trib columnist, Lds member Robert Kirby let us on that reality from less than two months ago?)
Here, I'll remind you what Kirby said:
In sacrament meeting last week, the bishop got up and announced he had received a letter from the First Presidency. As he prepared to read it, the congregation perked up. Moments like this are always attention-getters for Mormons. Normally, we get direction from the top during General Conference. Occasionally something can’t wait and it comes in the form of an official letter from the brethren telling us to start (or stop) doing something....The letter...told/counseled rank-and-file Mormons to stop pestering church headquarters for clarification of church doctrine. Apparently some members get so stressed about the finer points of doctrine that they’ll fire off a letter asking for the final word. Church HQ can’t handle the demand...According to the First Presidency’s letter, members with real doctrinal concerns were to seek the counsel of our local leaders — stake president, bishop, Scoutmaster, building custodian, etc.
Source: Kirby: Wrestling with doctrine no match for me
So, ya see, PD...it's not just what you deem as "anti-Mormon" queries...LDS CHURCH HQ can't handle the internal demand, either!
My conclusion when this column broke was:
Ah, the Internet is doing its job. So many questions are being raised by non-Mormons of Mormons, that the answers aren't there. Non-Mormons want answers. Grassroots Mormons are being deluged with such questions; hence, they, in turn seek answers from their authorities. Yet when non-Mormons ask these same kind of doctrinal questions, what do some online lds apologists do? Why, they send them to lds.org and the First Presidency of the lds church.
Then what happens when the First Presidency of the church gets besieged by these doctrinal questions -- whether they come indirectly through their own members or more directly from inquirers? Why, the First Presidency sends a Fall, 2010 missive to all their sacrament meetings around the world, telling them to stop sending their doctrinal questions to them because they can't handle most of them!
Merry TrueChristmas, PD!
One problem with your scenario... I have given you links to answer all of the non-issues brought up. It’s all there if you truly want it. You may not like the answer but it’s there.
Merry Christmas (There’s only one)
Fantastic news PD.
I am really happy that you are publicly stating that quotes from non affiliated non official lds sites are permissible as it is a non issue. So quotes from non official non affiliated sites are just as valuable and informative as official affiliated sites.
Wow. That probably was really hard for you to give up. Thanks.
O come, Thou Rod of Jesse, free
Thine own from Satan’s tyranny
From depths of Hell Thy people save
And give them victory o’er the grave
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Israel.
__________________________________________
To say that this refers to the anti-Christian Joey Smith is disgusting...
Joey Smith fired a six-shooter and “two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died” (John Taylor,)
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
and the mormons believe that murderers are never forgiven and murder is the unforgivable sin...
So Joey Smith went to outer darkness...
AHEM!
According to the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life’s monumental “U.S. Religious Landscape Survey” that was issued in June, 21% of self-proclaimed atheists believe in either a personal God or an impersonal force. Ten percent of atheists pray at least weekly and 12% believe in heaven.
The OTHER 101% are circular logic and rabbit trails.
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Office of First President & Living Prophet®: December 15th, 2010 The word for January is -
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I'll have to give you credit, PD; you tirelessly post your links over and over again; but...
One problem with your scenario: MORMONism was started, based on the LIES of two demonic PERSONAGES - Angels of LIGHT - that the BIBLE had CLEARLY warned about.
And now you and millions like you are deceived; but you ARE traveling a road that is filled with friends and kinfolks, making it easy to follow who ever is leading.
We Christians on FR are holding up signs - Bridge Out Ahead - so you won't fall off when you get to it.
Here is TRUTH - no link needed:
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
I am really happy that you are publicly stating that quotes from non affiliated non official lds sites are permissible as it is a non issue.
So quotes from non official non affiliated sites are just as valuable and informative as official affiliated sites.
The purpose of this section is not to prove that the claims of the Church are true.
Church HQ can’t handle the demand...
___________________________________________
God can...
God has never complained about the volume of requests for “clarification of church doctrine” and “the finer points of doctrine”
God has never felt compelled send an angry frustrated letter ...
Maybe the mormons should “pester” God instead...
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