Posted on 12/01/2010 6:28:46 PM PST by delacoert
Blame not me; but the BIBLE.
IT describes the visitation of the TWO Personages quite well.
I just merely point it out.
If one wants to believe they were NOT demons; who has convinced them of that?
OH?
And MORMONs place an inordinate amount of faith in LACK OF physical proof of anything MORMON.
WHY has their GOD hidden all these things that SHOULD be available to be found?
Citgies,
artifacts,
weaponry,
bones...
If it were the other way around, would your answer change?
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LOL. What does your gut tell you?
By whose judgment “should” all these things be available to be found? Where in the Bible does it say, “This book is true because you can identify various historical places in it where the characters claim to have been.”
Here I thought the Bible was true because it was true, and not because you could vacation in Palestine.
The bible is neither true or false, as MEN describe it.
Men have made certain claims about it,and archeologial EVIKDENCE tends to back up those claims.
MEN have made certain claims about the BoM; but, there is NOTHING found in the record to back up those claims.
"In the beginning GOD...." is a claim.
MEN either 'believe' it or they do not, for, so far, nothing has been found in the 'record' to either prove or disprove it.
A few verses later, 4 rivers are mentioned. There are two rivers today that have those names, and the area around them have yield literally TONS of artifacts that speak to the FACT that things described in the bible were truly where it calaimed they were.
The bible has been used to FIND some places - the BoM cannot be 'used' to find anything.
JS did NOT sit at a table, flipping the golden plates over, writing down the Reformed Egyptian® into 1611 English as he went; but stuffed his face into a HAT, and dictated words to one of his his stenographers, who wrote the words down.
"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."---Joseph Knight's journal.
"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.
"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.
In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:
"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."
"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)
In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:"When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12June 15, 1879, pp. 190-91.)
Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"("A New Witness for Christ in America,"Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)
"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.
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You can take the boy out of the country...
The Nephites gather to the land of Cumorah for the final battles—Mormon hides the sacred records in the hill Cumorah—The Lamanites are victorious, and the Nephite nation is destroyed—Hundreds of thousands are slain with the sword. About A.D. 385.
1 And now I finish my record concerning the destruction of my people, the Nephites. And it came to pass that we did march forth before the Lamanites.
2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.
3 And it came to pass that the king of the Lamanites did grant unto me the thing which I desired.
4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.
5 And *when three hundred and eighty and four years had passed away, we had gathered in all the remainder of our people unto the land of Cumorah.
6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.
7 And it came to pass that my people, with their wives and their children, did now behold the armies of the Lamanites marching towards them; and with that awful fear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them.
8 And it came to pass that they came to battle against us, and every soul was filled with terror because of the greatness of their numbers.
9 And it came to pass that they did fall upon my people with the sword, and with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the ax, and with all manner of weapons of war.
10 And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even my ten thousand who were with me, and I fell wounded in the midst; and they passed by me that they did not put an end to my life.
11And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.
12 And we also beheld the ten thousand of my people who were led by my son Moroni.
13 And behold, the ten thousand of Gidgiddonah had fallen, and he also in the midst.
14 And Lamah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Gilgal had fallen with his ten thousand; and Limhah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Jeneum had fallen with his ten thousand; and Cumenihah, and Moronihah, and Antionum, and Shiblom, and Shem, and Josh, had fallen with their ten thousand each.
15 And it came to pass that there were ten more who did fall by the sword, with their ten thousand each; yea, even all my people, save it were those twenty and four who were with me, and also a few who had escaped into the south countries, and a few who had deserted over unto the Lamanites, had fallen; and their flesh, and bones, and blood lay upon the face of the earth, being left by the hands of those who slew them to molder upon the land, and to crumble and to return to their mother earth.
16 And my soul was rent with anguish, because of the slain of my people, and I cried:
17 O ye fair ones, how could ye have departed from the ways of the Lord! O ye fair ones, how could ye have rejected that Jesus, who stood with open arms to receive you!
18 Behold, if ye had not done this, ye would not have fallen. But behold, ye are fallen, and I mourn your loss.
19 O ye fair sons and daughters, ye fathers and mothers, ye husbands and wives, ye fair ones, how is it that ye could have fallen!
20 But behold, ye are gone, and my sorrows cannot bring your return.
21 And the day soon cometh that your mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies which are now moldering in corruption must soon become incorruptible bodies; and then ye must stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, to be judged according to your works; and if it so be that ye are righteous, then are ye blessed with your fathers who have gone before you.
22 O that ye had repented before this great destruction had come upon you. But behold, ye are gone, and the Father, yea, the Eternal Father of heaven, knoweth your state; and he doeth with you according to his justice and mercy.
Your arguments are at odds with each other. First you say that the book of mormon isn’t what it claims to be because you can’t find any artifacts or archeological sites to back it up. Then you say that there is no evidence that god is, so you just have to believe and that’s ok. So which is it?
Either god reveals truth to his children or he doesn’t. It wouldn’t have occurred to me that he depended on archeologists to really drive his point home.
Couldn't say it better than that!
Dreadful. *snicker*
And?
Which is more impressive, do you think? Dictating a 500+ page book, or translating it while looking at some ancient documents?
By the by, the urim and thummim were part of old testament rituals — more hocus pocus?
That is the question. Please pay attention and do your critical thinking before posting.
I'm sorry I was misunderstood.
I meant that IF it were what it claimed to be; then there SHOULD be artifacts in abundance - with all other things being equal.
Why isn't there?
WHY hasn't MORMONism dug up the Hill all over the place?
After all; that is JS' legacy: digging in the dirt looking for treasure.
Houston: We have a problem.
YaBut whutchoo don’t know is at them there glaciers un floods and stuff come ther un washed all them bones un stuff away. I thunk long an hard.
Yer jist tryin to cause us’ns problums you dirty anti. Un quit callin me a retread BooB...er NooB.
Yes, ok.
But my question still stands — why does it matter? If the god of the universe tells someone by the spirit of truth what is true, why would that person care if modern archeologists found artifacts?
And if it does matter somehow, I’m fairly certain they just uncovered a new viking site in the middle of Old Town Stockholm. Last week. So the argument that something isn’t found today is hardly conclusive as to somethings possible existence.
I actually have no idea what you just said.
But if I assume that you are agreeing with the uber-bolded text above, I’m guessing you are excited about the idea that the said bones should have turned up somewhere by now.
To each his own, I suppose. How do you like the ark of the covenant?
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