Posted on 11/26/2010 5:25:45 AM PST by jafojeffsurf
“Catholic Caucus”
I am stating to learn some Catholic Apologetics and wanted to get some thoughts on a point I have not seen made so far in my learning’s. I know there are some very learned Catholics out there and wanted to get your perspectives on this.
To Minister can have several meanings: A servant; a subordinate; an officer or assistant of inferior rank; hence, an agent, an instrument. Definition source: http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/minister
Matthew 4:11 “Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.” The very next verse 4:12 “Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;”
Cannot an assumption be made that the Angles informed Jesus of Johns predicament? Would this not be intersession? As I understand our faith angles / saints have specific areas of responsibility (patron saints) and their prayers of intercessions do not go unheard by the Lord. Would not then this text be further proof of that belief?
I know in past discussion on this forum other faiths have issues of the dead praying for intersession, yet I find this a good example of how heavenly hosts can intercede on our behalf.
I’d like to get some other Catholic perspective on this scripture interpretation.
Ping
Wow just wow, So Jesus needed an intercessor?
So if the angles were not informing Jesus, What is it you would say they were doing? Teaching him the scripture?
Your sarcasm has no weight. Back it up with some logic please.
His point I think is that Jesus was also God. He didn’t need anyone to tell him about John.
And the Bible says nothing about anyone pleading on John’s behalf. Don’t read into Scripture what isn’t there.....
I do not believe I am adding stuff. “Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison”, So where did he hear it from? the line before it was the angles ministering right? So you tell me is it not safe to assume the two are related considering they are in conjunction with each other. If not they where did Jesus hear from?
Sounds like it was common knowledge. Could have heard it in the market place.
Interceding indicates a go-between making an argument, or a plea. Simply hearing that “something” has happened is simply that, hearing something.
Answered part of my own question, Angels ministering and the message John was in prison. These are not related in time. They are separate.
However the question is still open on what were they ministering. A Minister reports back to the leader and represents them IE intersession.
My suggestion is to click on the religion forum moderator’s name to see the rules for the religion forum. Something labeled as a “Catholic Caucus” or “Reformed Caucus” has specific rules, and is normally denoted in the actual thread title on FR. Good luck!
Freegards
Is this a serious question? Even if I were to accept your premise and your tortured definition of the word intercessor and thinly veiled attempt at buttressing Marian heresy do you think Jesus needs an intercessor? Do you believe he is part of the Godhead? Do you know the three O’s of God’ nature. Read Ezekiel when it comes to Lucifer
“You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you”
Did G*d need a gang of angelic snitches to tell him Lucifer’s thought process was going South fast? Of course not. There is no intercessor but Jesus the Son intercessor for us at the Judgement Seat of the Father..period. Miss that and you miss the Gospel message and frankly the whole Bible. If you need another intercessor besides Christ Jesus well to put a fine point on it you are not a Christian. Jesus is the Petros, the Rock which we base our faith on, not religions, doctrines, Popes, Saints, statues, rosaries, false signs and wonders, giant buildings, priests and bishops, Lordship Salvation, and un-Biblical repetitive pagan mutterings and prayers. Without understanding his completed works we are left grasping with questions like this, questioning His Lordship and very nature. You need to ask the Holy Spirit for an interpretation of this passage, get a Strong’s concordance, learn some Hebrew and Greek, get into a good Bible believing church and most important do your OWN study of scripture. Because ultimately it is up to us to know his word and develop a relationship with Him not for someone like me to argue you out of your position.
The Catholic Church is a bible-believing church.
It’s possible that YOU do not take this question seriously. However, it may be important to the OP.
The poster intended this to be a Catholic Caucus thread, as noted in the top of the thread, but was not clear on the rules and failed to put it in the title. If you read the thread, you might have noted that and out of courtesy, refrained from posting on it.
But I suppose that is asking too much.
You are right I did not do it correctly (Catholic Caucus), but it is not a big issue. I already know those who’s faith is of another denomination do not understand or want to understand intersession. The heart of Apologetics is understanding my faith and being able to explain it and not to apologies because I disagree.
The true root question has to do with the definition of the word minister and I noted “pburgh01” does not address this question but goes off in a different direction.
Well, I didn’t mean any criticism toward you. If you don’t mind this as an open thread, no problem, let others say what they want to.
I’ve read some of your comments on other threads, and I’m impressed.
Sure...Or, you can assume it was Spiderman who made the intersession...The verse doesn't say he didn't...
Or perhaps John's dog, with a note tied to his collar, traveled the distance to find Jesus and inform Jesus of John's plight...
Where did you ever get that definition???
Perhaps you should actually read the Bible, instead of having it read to you, and learn the difference between intercessor and mediator.
"I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:" 1 Timothy 2:1
"For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:" 1 Timothy 2:5
"Then Simon answering, said: Pray you for me to the Lord, that none of these things which you have spoken may come upon me." Acts 8:24
"Brethren, pray for us." 1 Thessalonians 5:25
"Therefore we also, from the day that we heard it, cease not to pray for you, and to beg that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will, in all wisdom, and spiritual understanding:" 1 Colossians 1:9
et al
I'll intercede on your behalf; as I'm sure other intercessors will also, and pray to the Mediator that the veil of ignorance which covers your mind be lifted.
You bet...That's where you learn that Mary and the dead Saints are Mediatrixes, Mediaries and Co-Reemers as espoused by your religion...Oh, you don't learn that from reading scripture??? Where then do you get it from???
That these co-Gods are also referred to as innercessionists by your religion, one has to be careful when using the word innercession...
Do you pray for yourself alone? Christians pray for other, friend family, enemy’s, piece on earth. This is intersession my friend. If you do not do this then I would challenge your Christianity. If you do pray for others then then why?
I think you are talking about angels here and not angles — like triangles, quadrangles, etc.
Remember that Jesus has fasted for forty days in the desert when he was tempted.
I’ve always thought that verse meant that the angels came and praised him and supported him much as a family might support a sick one. Or a church might ministers to one of their members who is dying by taking the spouse some food for the day.
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