They See Dead People?

Mormonism Research Ministry ^ | Bill McKeever

[Colofornian]

Human communication with the dead, or necromancy, is never encouraged in the Bible and is always condemned (1 Samuel 15:23, 28:6ff). Such a practice was punishable by death (1 Samuel 28:9) in theocratic Israel. Despite these grave warnings, many temple Mormons look forward with great anticipation to possibly being visited by spirits of the dead. In fact, there are a number of recorded sightings of alleged dead spirits who have visited Mormons in LDS temples.

Prior to the dedication of the San Diego temple in 1993, local Mormon families were given a packet entitled Family Temple Preparation Material. Included in this written material were about seven pages devoted to "true stories" of temple patrons who were visited by the dead.

Fourth Mormon Prophet Wilford Woodruff told followers in 1887, "The dead will be after you, they will seek after you as they have after us in St. George (Journal of Discourses 19:229). Woodruff is referring to the St. George temple in southern Utah. He also stated, “I will here say that two weeks before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, "You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to it and were faithful to God. These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and they waited on me for two days and two nights” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p.160).

In his book entitled Temple Manifestations, Mormon writer Joseph Heinerman lists several accounts of dead spirits visiting patrons in LDS temples. Such encounters are never condoned by the Bible and as such, should be shunned rather than encouraged.

[Elsie]

 

 There’s a difference between actively trying to summon a spirit versus being passively aware of a spirit or angel that is appearing to you in a dream or vision.

 

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KJV

 Galatians 1:6-9

 6.  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
 7.  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 9.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 

 

 

 

ANYBODY???

 

Like this fine looking fellow???

 

 

 

 

 

2 Corinthians 11:12-15

 12.  But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
 13.  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
 14.  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
 15.  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

 

Like THESE guys??

 

 

 

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

 

 

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

 

 

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Ephesians 2:1-2 

1.  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

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1 Corinthians 4:17
  For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

 

1 Corinthians 11:2
   Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:15
   Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

 

2 Timothy 1:13
   Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

 

2 Timothy 3:14-15
 14.  But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
 15.  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[laotzu]

Here's stuff you can SEE!

Oh my!! Are those satanic steeples?!! Was Walt a satan worshipper?

[Elsie]

 As strange as the practice may seem, it is actually biblical and is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:29:

 

“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”

 

actually biblical is a bit of a stretch.  It's IN the bible but it is NOT a biblical practice.

 

The 'they' Paul speaks of are NOT Christians; or he would have said WE.

[Elsie]

I haven’t been to the temple in several years, and I do not currently have a temple recommend.

 

Why not?

 

They haven't changed the questions lately; so SURELY there is nothing here on this list worth more than your EXALTATION!

 

 

 

Temple Recommend Questions

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1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

5 Do you live the law of chastity?

6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?

12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

       Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
       Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

[Elsie]

Was Walt a satan worshipper?

[CynicalBear]

>>I only know of one person who has seen a passed relative. I haven’t but I do believe it is possible.<<

In the Bible we find that communicating with the dead is an abomination. Deuteronomy 18 would be one place.

[Colofornian]

Mormons do not practice necromancy. We do not "summon up" the dead for any purpose.

Here's the deal. A number of Mormon published books have emphasized manifestations of the supposed dead, without having any qualifications as to whether that spirit was actually the one belonging to thad dead person, or was a demonic spirit masquerading as a deceased relative.

I mean, come on Logo. Who has special "training" in this kind of discernment? And the New Testament says to "test the spirits." In the many Mormon accounts I've seen, did anybody "test these spirits" to rule out demonic activity. I haven't seen those precautions taken.

I'm speaking of:
* Mormon John Heinerman's book, Temple Manifestations.
* Mormon author Duane Crowther's book, Life Everlasting. (Bookcraft) Both have a lot of these manifestations all presented in a "positive" way.

I'm also speaking of the dozens of accounts re: Wilford Woodruff and the St. George temple. This account makes it into the Lds curricula wholly unqualified. Same with D&C 138 where dead relatives appear to Joseph F. Smith. This has even become Mormon "scripture" 50 years after it happened.

These accounts even make it into the syllabus of BYU courses...like Religious Education C261, Introduction to LDS Family History (Genealogy), where they speak of manifestations of supposed dead spirits.

While indeed most of these accounts don't initially involve Mormons initiating contact with these "spirits..." The reality seems to be that...
(1) By Mormon leaders sanctioning the dead appearing to their members as something "spiritual," they encourage such contact even if the examples they use are ones where the Mormons are on the receiving side.
(2) It's possible that Mormons, although not initiating contact the first time, perhaps have done so on ensuing occasions.

In Crowther's book, Life Everlasting (see footnote 41 of that book), he quotes Mitt Romney ancestor Parley P. Pratt as saying: "...we frequently hold communication with our departed father, mother, brother, sister, son or daughter; or with the former husband or wife of our bosom..."

When you look at Crowther's book, Life Everlasting, Crowther says on pp. 249-250 that these are "good spirits" who "return to earth and converse with Mormons." How does Crowther know that's the case across the board?

Crowther goes on to claim "seven reasons" for why these "spirits" communicate with Mormons:
1. give counsel
2. give comfort
3. obtain or give information
4. serve as guardian angels
5. prepare others for death
6. summon mortals into the spirit world
7. escort the dying through the veil of death
Source: Crowther, Life Everlasting, Bookcraft, 1988, pp. 249-250

According to John Ankerberg and John Weldon, "Such teaching is in complete harmony with the teachings of mediums and spiritists everywhere. Indeed, on these points it is impossible to distinguish Mormon practice from general spiritism." (The Facts on the Mormon Church by John Ankerberg, John Weldon,& Dillon Burroughs 1991/2009 Harvest House, p. 73)

[Paragon Defender]

Well golly since your translation says so I’ll alert all the other denominations.

[Colofornian]

Seriously, someone told me that the Mormons keep excellent genealogy records because they believe we are all LDS and related and that they can “rebaptise” all of us after death, which they have done to those in the genealogy registry. Is this true?

Yes, it's true. They re-baptize non-Mormons by what they call "proxy" -- somebody else vicariously receiving the Mormon baptism in the hidden Mormon temple religious ceremonies.

The occultic theme is prominently connected re: the Mormon temple and its baptizing dead people. A follow-up Lds "prophet" -- Joseph F. Smith -- claimed over 90 years ago years ago this month to see the hosts of the dead, both small and great...an innumerable company of the spirits of the just (D&C 138:11-12) -- and these spirits were just waiting for Mormon missionaries to come their way to be redeemed via such re-baptizing...

JF Smith said that the Mormon jesus had prepared "the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh; That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words. (D&C 138:37-38)

These demonic manifestations seem to love October...when JF Smith received them and treated them as ghostly spirits...

And then almost 50 years later, the Mormon church decided Smith's manifestations was on the same level as "scripture" -- so they added it to their "scripture" book.

[Godzilla]

Well golly since your translation says so I’ll alert all the other denominations.

Do you have another translation that says otherwise. . . . didn't think so.

[CynicalBear]

>> If the spirits of the dead came to Jesus, and He spoke with them, it cannot be wrong.<<

First off, Elijah never died.

Second, Moses died prior to Jesus death and resurrection. Everything changed after the resurrection. Jesus being truly God had powers and privileges that those of us who are only human do not.

Jesus also went down to Sheol after His death on the cross. Would you suggest that is also something available to us mere humans?

[CynicalBear]

Mormons are incorrect. They have usurped this verse and taken it out of context. So, let’s examine 1 Cor. 15 briefly so we can see what Paul is talking about when he mentions baptism for the dead.

In verses 1-19, the fact of Christ’s resurrection is detailed by Paul. Beginning in verse 20 and going through verse 23, Paul speaks about the order of the resurrection. Christ was the first one raised - in a glorified body - and next will be those who are His at His return. Verses 24 - 29 then mention Christ’s reign and the abolition of death. This is when this controversial verse occurs: “Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?”

Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. This religion was mentioned by Homer in Hymn to Demeter 478-79.1 The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other customs. After all, they were in a large economic area where a great many different people frequented. It is probable that the Corinthians were being influenced by the religious practices found at Eleusis where baptism for the dead was practiced.

Paul used this example from the pagans in 1 Cor. 15:29, when he said, “...if the dead are not raised, then why are they baptized for the dead?” Paul did not say we.2

This is significant because the Christian church was not practicing baptism for the dead, but the pagans were.

[Logophile]

In short, my original statement still stands: Mormons do not practice necromancy. We do not "summon up" the dead for any purpose.

[Colofornian]

In short, my original statement still stands: Mormons do not practice necromancy. We do not "summon up" the dead for any purpose.

In post #8 you gave a Webster definition of Necromancy. That's a limited definition that doesn't cover all the usages of the word.

For one thing it places the emphasis on telling or divining the future. But the Greek word from which "mancy" comes is manteia, which also means "prophesy." And prophesy is both foretelling the future AND forthtelling the present. (See p. 132 of Brewer's online book: re: Biblemancy entry on p. 132): Manteia Greek word for Mancy

And you'll see at this Web site how "mancy" is used for both divination and prophesy: Types of 'Mancy'

The other aspect of Webster's definition is that it always puts the ball in the summoner's court -- that they conjure up a spirit. You'll see in Isaiah 8:19 that another word for "seek" (King James word) is "consult": 19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

After consultants have taken the initiation to introduce themselves, sometimes those who use them take the initiative. And even then, let's say we could say with certainty that such spirit consultants assumed the initiative 100% of the time, so what?

Review post #27 again, and then ask yourself, what would it matter if these consultants were the 100% initiators? The bottom line would be the same: You've got Mormons consulting the dead for information, for comfort, for counsel, for guidance, etc. -- even if we agreed that these consultants were the iniators. We have hundreds of Mormon incidents where they have consulted the dead -- even if don't use terms like "summon" or "conjure" to describe the dynamics of what occurred.

Responsive consultations -- demons acting as ghosts -- is not exactly any behavior any church trying to associate with the name of Jesus Christ should be actively promoting, which the Mormon church is doing.

[Logophile]

Second, Moses died prior to Jesus death and resurrection. Everything changed after the resurrection.

True. And Jesus spoke to Moses before the resurrection.

It would be absurd to accuse Jesus of practicing necromancy when He spoke with Moses. Yet the article at the beginning of this thread treats necromancy as communication with the dead and hints that Mormons practice necromancy. As I pointed out in Post 8, neither is correct.

Jesus also went down to Sheol after His death on the cross. Would you suggest that is also something available to us mere humans?

Since Sheol means "the grave" or "realm of the dead" (and is so translated in the NIV), I would say that every human who dies will go down to Sheol. (That includes almost all of us.) Thankfully, because of Jesus Christ, all will come out of the grave again.

[Hoosier Catholic Momma]

Well, it’s in large font with many colors and long Scripture passages, so it MUST be true! ;)

[colorcountry]

I also understand that they starve children, rape the rain-forest, build glass ceilings, burn churches in the south, blow holes in the ozone, want sick people to die quickly, and are racists.

Funny, I heard the same about Buddhists. ;)

[Artcore]

Joseph Smith was brilliant in making it so later “revelations” overruled Scripture, so any contradictions could be waved away. It’s also funny that the current LDS doesn’t even follow Joseph Smith’s words.
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Exactly correct!

Just try quoting the “King Follet Discourse” or the “Journal of Discourses” to an LDS member, and they really get uncomfortable.

I remember Gordon Hinckley refuted the idea that LDS believe they will become gods. He said: “I’m not sure that we believe that...”

Just wow!

[CynicalBear]

>>I would say that every human who dies will go down to Sheol.<<

You are right to a point. Sheol had several layers and the words translated had separate meanings. There was the physical grave which the early Israelites misinterpreted as the only place. The other words which were translated Sheol and Hades meant a place or realm for the spirit prior to Jesus resurrection. The spirits of faithful Israelites were in a “holding place” which have become known as Sheol, Hades, or purgatory. That place was abolished upon Jesus resurrection.

[Elsie]

Who has special "training" in this kind of discernment?

I do!!

< Shake their hand and feel for BONES!!!

http://nowscape.com/mormon/handshake.htm