The Christmas Story and Joseph Smith, Restorer of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (OPEN)

greaterthings.com ^ | Lynn Ridenhour

[greyfoxx39]

This article is posted to allow open discussion of a previous thread regarding the author.

 

 

The Christmas Story and Joseph Smith, Restorer of the Gospel of Jesus Christ
by Lynn Ridenhour


It's that time of year again. A time to love. A time to be a child again. A time to accept everyone & everything. It's time for the Christmas Story.

We all know it. And it's a blessed theme.

May I put a new spin on it?...

Much of the symbolism of the Christmas story, I believe, wraps around one of my favorite persons——Joseph Smith, Jr. Take, for instance, the star. Wise men from the east looked for this sign to appear in the heavens.

And the star must appear at an appointed time. It must appear on the darkest night of the year. Which happens to be, by the way, December 23rd. Joseph Smith was born on December 23rd--the darkest night of the year. The Egyptians referred to this night as the "Winter Solstice."

It was believed among the ancient Egyptians that the purpose of earth life was to prepare for eternal life with the Gods in the world to come. Everything that was, had been before. There was nothing "...new under the sun." Every person simply had to find his place on the celestial stairway, pass the guardian angels and find his way back into celestial glory.

I submit--Joseph is that Star which leads a dark world out of "Winter Solstice"-- back to the Christ child. He's the guardian messenger who has the revelations, the hidden mysteries——that lead us back into celestial glory. Especially in our dispensation, for so many grand truths were lost in the reformation.

December 23rd——Winter Solstice——Joseph Smith——the Star on that dark night——and the Christmas Story. I can see the symbolism.

Wise men from the east were called magi, or grand magi. Wise men from the grand orient lodge will follow that star until they find the babe wrapped in his stable. There was no room for the babe in the Inn (or lodge). No room for the Master in other lodges, so he was born among the common folks of his day. Nothing has changed……

There will be those of us who will follow the Master out of all lodges of perfection, even in our day——out of all false plans of salvation. They will be known as wise men who will follow the star that leads them to the Inn where the babe lies in a manger.

Joseph Smith, Jr. was one of the Wise Men of his day. I want to be one of the Wise Men of my day. I'm sure the same can be said of all of us. We want to be wise.

Wherein lies wisdom? It's found in the simplicity of the Christmas Story. It's said of the three wise men--they were learned men of the east, schooled in astronomy and the signs of the stars. Yet these three wise men followed their hearts that night and found the Gift of Love. They laid aside their wisdom and found His. They embraced the simplicity of the story. The Christmas Story is a simple story. Even a child understands. It's we adults who complicate it.

I love Joseph Smith, for he had a simple mind. (He was not simple-minded.) He played with children. He loved simple things. And he restored the simple gospel——love your neighbor as yourself. It takes a wise man to remain simple.

Jesus said an interesting thing during his sermon on the mount; "...consider the lilies of the field, how they grow...and yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these" (Mt. 6:28,29).

He made reference to the "...lilies of the field," and then made reference to Solomon. Solomon, in his writings, also referred to the same flower. Hymns have been written about Solomon's classic statement, "...I AM therose of Sharon and the lily of the valleys" (Song of Solomon 2:1). As a young lad growing up in a small Baptist Church back in the hills of the Ozarks, I heard many a sermon preached on Jesus as the lily of the valley and the Rose of Sharon. I've sung the hymn "Lily of the Valley" many times.

Let me suggest another possible meaning. Joseph Smith was born on December 23rd, 1805, in Sharon, Vermont. The word "rose" means "secret unfolding." The Rose of Sharon is often the emblem for secret brotherhood. It's used as an emblem in many lodges.

I believe Joseph Smith is the Rose of Sharon. His teachings are like secrets unfolded. Like roses. Like Jesus and his sermons, you either get it or you don't. You're either part of His "wise brotherhood" who spread the simplicity of the gospel around, or you don't. Like the three wise men, you've either exchanged your worldly wisdom for his, or you haven't. Perhaps you too have decided to follow your heart--and have found the greatest story ever told. The Gift of Love in a manger, wrapped in all its plainness. You either have a revelation of the kingdom of God on this earth, or you don't. You either speak well of Joseph Smith, or you don't. You'll either come out of all other lodges and embrace the Rose of Sharon, embrace his secret unfoldings, and start spreading the gospel of simplicity——or you won't. Yes, I believe Joseph Smith was the Rose of Sharon.

He was also the Lily of the Valleys. The flower lily is white as white can be. It's known for its whiteness. The lily stands for purity and innocence. Joseph's heart, I believe, was both pure and innocent. Like a child's. Those who have sat under his teachings and who have watched him unfold his secrets, they have seen his white heart. And the lily grows in the valley. So did Joseph. His life was one of trials, trails, temptations and tears. He grew in the valley. And so do we.

Well, Jesus said, "...Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these."...one of these?..."

Like one of those who follows the Rose of Sharon and his teachings of Jesus Christ. It's the Gift of Love wrapped in all its simplicity.

[Cronos]

There never has been any "reformed Egyptian" beyond the fermented brain of the LDS profits

Never has a professional Egyptologist been able to recognize any pre-colombine pictographs or "writings" as Egyptian hieroglyphs. Note that only the ancient Maya had a complete script in pre-Colombus america

There is no and never was such a language as 'reformed Egyptian'."

Joe smith either presented his doodlings or deformed English as reformed egyptian (of course, he was preaching to simple folks who he conned)

[Cronos]

Joe Smith and his ilk were not prophets in any sense of the word

The book of Deuteronomy provides a test for those who claim to speak for Lord and these are from chap 18:

20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

And so much of what the profit Joe said did not come to pass -- like

Winter 1829-1830. Comp Hist 1:165 Joseph had a revelation that Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery were to go to Toronto to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon to raise money.
&nbspThey went, according to the revelation, but were completely unsuccessful. Joseph Smith "inquired of God" and was told that some "revelations" are not from God. David Whitmer reports this incident in his book An Address To All Believers In Christ, Richmond, 1887, photo reprinting by Utah Lighthouse Ministry, pp 30-31

March 1831. D&C 49:9-10. The nations of the earth shall bow to the Mormon gospel or they "shall come down" and "shall be laid low of power."
&nbspNone of the nations of the earth have accepted the Mormon gospel or "bowed" to it, yet none have been "laid low" because of it.

July 1831. D&C 57:1-3 Missouri is named as the land consecrated for the gathering of the Saints and the place for the City of Zion and the building of a temple at Independence. It will be purchased by the saints "for an ever-lasting inheritance."

Sept 22-23, 1832. D&C 84:2-5, 31 Zion will be built with its temple at Independence, "in this generation". This generation shall not all pass away until the temple will be built upon the spot. Orson Pratt in 1870 reiterated the prophecy (JD 9:71, 10:344, 13:362) and insisted that it will come to pass within the generation living in 1832.

Jan 4, 1833. HC 1:315-316. Joseph Smith says "by the authority of Jesus Christ" that "not many years shall pass away" before the wicked "of this generation" will be swept from off the face of the land and the Lost Ten Tribes will be gathered to Missouri, and that "there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken, fulfilled."

Aug 2, 1833. D&C 97:18-20. Promise that if the saints are obedient the City of Zion (in Missouri) will prosper and become glorious, great and terrible, honored by the nations of the earth. Zion cannot fall or be moved out of its place.
  Mormons were driven out of Independence and from all of their settlements in Missouri in 1839. The temple lot is not owned by the Mormon church. No one living in the generation when the prophecy was made is still alive. The wicked of that generation were no more "swept from off the face of the land" than were their contemporary Mormons. The Lost Ten Tribes have not been gathered to Missouri. Nothing in all these prophecies has been fulfilled, even though the majority of the saints steadfastly followed Joseph Smith and were faithful.

Dec 16, 1833. D&C 101:17-20 Zion (Missouri) shall not be moved out of its place; the Saints will receive their inheritance there, and there is no other place than Missouri appointed by God for the gathering of the Saints.

April 23, 1834. D&C 104: 78-83. God's promise to deliver the Saints from their debts. "It is my will that you shall pay all your debts." The Lord will soften the hearts of their creditors.
Joseph Smith and other prominent Mormons had to flee Kirtland to avoid their creditors, leaving debts of thousands of dollars unpaid. Smith ultimately filed bankruptcy.

Conclusion -- Joe Smith was a false prophet, rather, he, like the other LDS folks were profits(eekers)...

[Elsie]

You should know by now, ANTI, that your list of FACTS and LOGIC and TIMELINEs canNOT trump the FEELINGs we have in our hearts.

--MormonDude(We KNOW that Joseph Smith (pbuh) was a Prophet of GOD and this testimoney is TRUE!)

[Stourme]

[Cronos panics]

Even if we accept that the word horos should be translated literally as "hill" in this passage, it still does not narrow us down to Rome. Other cities are known for having been built on seven hills as well.

[Stourme muses]
     Yea, but other cities built on hills don't have world world wide churches that have a documented history of genocide. If it walks like a duck...

If these are the last days, then this whore that sits on seven mountains and has committed enough violence to be pointed out in scripture, has to be on the earth right now.

Sooo.. who is it then?

John describes this whore as the mother of harlots. (little whores). The reformation spawned thousands of different churches....

John describes the devil as the giving power this "whore". Therefore I can conclude that this "whore" teaches the devils doctrine. I do a scripture search on what those doctrines might be...

1 Timothy 4:1-3

1 NOW the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

3 Forbidding to marry,...

Members of the catholic priesthood have a policy against marriage...(Doesn't matter the reason...but they do it)

Ok... so lets recap...

What organizations on the earth today:

1. Sits on seven mountains

2. Is global

3. Has a history of murder and violence

4. Has spawned many miniatures of itself

5. And forbids to marry...

I can only come up with one answer. The catholic church...totally fits. There's a ton more obviously.

Only the devil ... and only the devil would convince a man that he is soooo great ... that he can dress himself in fine clothing, put on expensive jewelry, sit on a white throne, and call himself "Holy Father". -a name reserved for God Himself. But that describes all the Popes though...doesn't it?

The great apostasy was real. Amos, Paul, John, and Daniel prophesied about it. History vindicates their prophesy

 

 

[Stourme]

[Cronos assumes]

Matthew 28:20

20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Did Joe SMith tell his followers that Jesus lied?

 

[Stourme corrects]

That's Jesus' promise. He will be with us till the end of the world.

I find that many people make a huge and wrong assumption about verses like this. They think it means that no matter what man does or what man chooses, God will be with him. And that's simply not true. God is not the servant of man.

God does not force himself on anyone. God invites.

If man chooses God, God has made the promise to always be there. But man has the freedom to choose his own path.

2 Timothy 4:2 - 4

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

 

[Cronos]

That's Jesus' promise. He will be with us till the end of the world. --> yes, He is with us in the form of His Church the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church, which has been protected by the grace of the Holy Spirit.

So, you then do agree that your earlier statement about a complete loss of Christ's Church for 1800+ years until the con-man J. Smith is a wrong statement?

[Cronos]

[Stourme panics]

Yea, but other cities built on hills don't have world world wide churches that have a documented history of genocide

[Cronos corrects]

1. Pagan Rome committed genocides, yes, before it was Christianized
2. Babylon, another city built on hills also did quite a few of those and you can check for the numerous other cities built on hills
3. The Vatican is strangely enough not one of the 7 hills of Rome -- waddya know!
4. Perhaps the great Whore of Babylon is this

5. John describes this whore as the mother of harlots. (little whores). The whore, the original cult formed by J Smith gave birth to a number of harlots

5. John describes the devil as the giving power this "whore". Therefore I can conclude that this "whore", the LDS cult teaches the devils doctrine.

6. 1 Tim 3:12 reads

12A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.

And yet Mormon cult leaders have quite a few wifes, eh?

7. In 1 Timothy 4, Paul is speaking about those who have veered away from the Christian understanding of the goodness of marriage, opting for a false asceticism that denounces it. This heresy would later raise its head against the Church in the form of the Cathari, who condemned marriage and procreation as great evils. Such an unbalanced idea of marriage is the opposite of the celibacy chosen by Catholic priests. Those who "renounce marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 19:12 NAB) do so not because marriage is bad, but precisely because its goodness makes its renunciation a valuable and generous gift to offer to God. After all, the goodness of a gift determines the value of the sacrifice. This is why the Israelites offered God their first-fruits, not their leftovers. The theory that Church leaders must be married also contradicts the obvious fact that Paul himself, an eminent Church leader, was single, unless you say that +Paul was a hypocrite he could hardly have imposed a requirement on bishops which he did not himself meet. Consider, too, the implications regarding Paul’s positive attitude toward celibacy in 1 Corinthians 7: the married have worldly anxieties and divided interests, yet only they are qualified to be bishops; whereas the unmarried have single-minded devotion to the Lord, yet are barred from ministry!

The suggestion that the unmarried man is somehow untried or unproven is equally absurd. Each vocation has its own proper challenges: the celibate man must exercise "self-control" (1 Cor. 7:9); the husband must love and care for his wife selflessly (Eph. 5:25); and the father must raise his children well (1 Tim. 3:4). Every man must meet Paul’s standard of "managing his household well," even if his "household" is only himself. If anything, the chaste celibate man meets a higher standard than the respectable family man.

[dfwgator]

What’s the difference between Joe Smith and David Koresh?

[Cronos]

Let's repeat that for you Vatican City is not built on the seven hills of Rome, nor is it built on 7 other hills it is built on Vatican Hill, which is not one of the seven upon which ancient Rome was built. Those hills are on the east side of the Tiber river; Vatican Hill is on the west.
the great apostasy is just fabulous fiction

Amos 8:11-14 (prophesied around 780 B.C), he warned of the coming destruction of Israel that would, in fact, occur in 721 B.C.as his book speaks of an apostasy in ancient Israel, not after the death of the last apostle in New Testament times.

And note that this apostasy was not total. In the very next chapter (9:8-10), Amos makes this very clear: "'Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from the surface of the ground; except that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob,' says the Lord. 'For lo, I will command, and shake the house of Israel among all the nations as one shakes with a sieve, but no pebble shall fall to the ground. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, who say, 'Evil shall not overtake or meet us.'

Even during such a corrupt time as the time of the Judges, when "every man did what was right in his own eyes" (Judges 17:6). Yet, even then, this gift of "the Urim and the Thummim" (in the original sense, not J. Smith's con game) was alive and well. And when the Israelites consulted God through "Phineas the son of Eleazar the son of Aaron," who was High Priest at the time (cf. Judges 20:18-28), they received the oracle of God through him. They may not have always consulted the Lord or obeyed Him, but He was always there for them.

Daniel talks about the times after the neo-Baylonian Empire and goes on to talks about Christ's Church that never fell away. Daniel describes a time of the coming of Christ, the a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. -->
you also contradicted yourself because THIS kingdom, the Christian Church was never destroyed as stated in Daniel, yet you and the Mormons repeat the false and statements about Great apostasy, contradicting yourself.

This is of course along with the other fantastically false stories about the lost tribes coming to the US (an extension or amalgamation of British Israelism) which is historically, archeologically and genetically false and proven false.

[Cronos]

And of course, you dont' read the entire passage of Daniel which reads as

39And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

40And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

--> do you understand that Daniel writing in 600 BC is talkign about Nebuchadnezzars neo-Babylonian Empire as the first kingdom, then the second being the Achemenid Persian Empire, then the third (brass) being the Greek Empires, then the fourth (iron), being the Roman Empire. Then the fourth, the Roman was divided into East and West, yet the Eastern part survived until the 15th century.

Daniel describes a time of the coming of Christ, the a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. --> you also just contradicted yourself because THIS kingdom, the Christian Church was never destroyed as stated in Daniel, yet you and the Mormons make up the false statements about Great apostasy, contradicting yourself.

[Cronos]

[Stourme makes another one of his laughably wrong mis-statements (of many)]

The time after Christs death is called the dark ages for a reason

 

[Cronos corrects]

I would suggest taking the time to do some research. The "dark ages" is a term referring to the perceived period of both cultural and economic deterioration as well as disruption that took place in Western Europe following the decline of the Roman Empire.

you do KNOW that the Roman Empire declined following the 4th century AFTER Christ,right?

Also, The concept of a Dark Age originated with the Italian scholar Petrarch (Francesco Petrarca) in the 1330s, and was originally intended as a sweeping criticism of the character of Late Latin literature. Petrarch regarded the post-Roman centuries as "dark" compared to the light of classical antiquity. Later historians expanded the term to refer to the transitional period between Roman times and the High Middle Ages, so quite different from your own personal (flawed) interpretation

[Stourme]

[Cronos corrects]

[Stourme elates]

Cool, I have groupies!!

 

 

 

 

[Stourme]

[Cronos rambles]

 you also just contradicted yourself because THIS kingdom, the Christian Church was never destroyed as stated in Daniel,

[Stourme explains]

Your interpretation denies men their agency. And if your interpretation were correct then God bends to the will of man. Which is simply not true.

Daniel's point is that all the great kingdoms will pass away and then the Lord would set up a kingdom that wouldn't be destroyed. He uses the word "destroyed" to separate to two ages of His kingdom on the earth. Why else would Daniel even bother using the word "destroyed" in the first place. Daniel uses that word because it's relevant.

[Stourme continues]

This is not a fairy tale. If the scriptures are true, and I believe they are, then we should be able to apply and mark the prophesies with real world events.

John continues:

Revelation 17:2

 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Along with all the murder and mayhem this "whore of all the earth" or church will do, it will also do bad things with conspiring kings of the earth.

For example: In 1580 Pope Gregory XIII tried to get Queen Elizabeth I assasinated. This was of course after he ordered King Philip II of Spain to attack Ireland.... and the Netherlands.... and England.

Everyone's heard of the Spanish armada of 1588. The other side of the story is that the armada was coming to invade England to reinstate Roman Catholism. Spain had been blessed by the Pope to do it. In 1597 Spain tried it again.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't fit this description. At all... nota.. -0-

[Stourme contemplates]

Now please show me where Jesus says "Go ye therefore and kill anyone that you can't convert and send great armies and navies to force all nations to believe your doctrine. Slaughtering them in my name."

I can't seem to find that verse.

[Stourme continues]

History proves that Jesus Christ is not nor never has been leading the Roman Catholic Church. The two in no way fit.

The Great Apostasy was real.

After you've explained how Jesus told the Pope to do all that I've listed above..

Again... explain this...

1. Please explain then where Christ taught His Apostles to burn people alive for heresy...

2. Please show me where Christ taught His Apostles to hold inquisitions...

3. Please show me where Christ taught His Apostles to torture people...

4. Please show me where Christ taught His Apostles to put out death warrants on world leaders (Elizabeth I)

5. Please show me where Christ taught His Apostles to sell indulgences...

6. Please show me where Christ taught His Apostles to sit on high thrones, wear gold laden clothing, require people to kiss their rings, and call themselves "Holy Father".

7. Please show me where Christ taught His Apostles to throw away scripture...

8. Please show me where Christ taught His Apostles that pagan emperors would take over appointing church leaders....

By their fruits ye shall know them....

[Cronos]

[Stourme rambles]

 Your interpretation denies men their agency. And if your interpretation were correct then God bends to the will of man

[Cronos explains]Non-sequitor -- you're saying the interpretation denies free will as well as promotes men's free will?

Daniel's point is very clear. you dont' read the entire passage of Daniel which reads as

39And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

40And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

--> do you understand that Daniel writing in 600 BC is talkign about Nebuchadnezzars neo-Babylonian Empire as the first kingdom, then the second being the Achemenid Persian Empire, then the third (brass) being the Greek Empires, then the fourth (iron), being the Roman Empire. Then the fourth, the Roman was divided into East and West, yet the Eastern part survived until the 15th century.

Daniel describes a time of the coming of Christ, the a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. --> you also just contradicted yourself because THIS kingdom, the Christian Church was never destroyed as stated in Daniel, yet you and the Mormons make up the false statements about Great apostasy, contradicting yourself.

[Stourme struggles with English]

 Daniel's point is that all the great kingdoms will pass away and then the Lord would set up a kingdom that wouldn't be destroyed

[Cronos explains]

Of course, He set up a kingdom that wouldn't be destroyed --> YET, YOU KEEP INSISTING THAT HIS KINGDOM WAS DESTROYED -- YOU KEEP CONTRADICTING YOURSELF. He set up a kingdom -- His Church, the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church that has never been destroyed.

[Stourme makes another contradiction]

  If the scriptures are true, and I believe they are

[Cronos explains]

Yet, you and the other Moromns keep saying that the scripture (the Bible is part of the great Apostasy -- well, which is it?

Along with all the murder and mayhem this "whore of all the earth" or church will do

On Sept. 11, 1857, in a meadow in southwestern Utah, a militia of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or Mormons, attacked a wagon train of Arkansas families bound for California. After a five-day siege, the militia persuaded the families to surrender under a flag of truce and a pledge of safe passage. Then, in the worst butchery of white pioneers by other white pioneers in the entire colonization of America, approximately 140 men, women and children were slaughtered. Only 17 children under the age of 8 - the age of innocence in the Mormon faith - were spared.

After the massacre, the church first claimed that local Paiute Indians were responsible, but as evidence of Mormon involvement mounted, it placed the sole blame for the killings on John D. Lee, a militia member and a Mormon zealot who was also the adopted son of the prophet Brigham Young. After nearly two decades, as part of a deal for statehood, Lee was executed by a firing squad in 1877. The church has been reluctant to assume responsibility - labelling Lee a renegade - but several historians, including some who are Mormon, believe that church leaders, though never prosecuted, ordered the massacre.

Pretty obvious,eh?

the great Whore of Babylon is this

5. John describes this whore as the mother of harlots. (little whores). The whore, the original cult formed by J Smith gave birth to a number of harlots

5. John describes the devil as the giving power this "whore". Therefore I can conclude that this "whore", the LDS cult teaches the devils doctrine.

6. 1 Tim 3:12 reads

12A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.

And yet Mormon cult leaders have quite a few wifes, eh?


" it will also do bad things with conspiring kings of the earth. " --> yup, the Mormons above -- greedy cult.

Please show me where Christ taught His Apostles to throw away scripture...

Oh -- and do you accept the Bible in it's entirety? Yet, you just said it was the start of the great Apostasy!!

God has nothing to do with the running of the Mormon Cult. So says the prophets, so says history.

In contrast, History proves that God is guiding Christ's One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church -- this is the instrument how the conversion of EUrope, Africa, Asia and the Americas came to Christ

[Stourme]

[Cronos trolls]

YET, YOU KEEP INSISTING THAT HIS KINGDOM WAS DESTROYED

 but several historians, including some who are Mormon, believe that church leaders, though never prosecuted, ordered the massacre.

 

[Stourme boggles]

You're comparing ants and elephants. I've seen people with blinders on...but boy.

1. The Church had no involvement with mountain meadows. This equates to wishful thinking on the part of Mormon haters.

2. There is no contradiction in my words.

a. Christ started a Church among the people. The Church is made for man, not man for the Church.

b. When there is no prophet to speak directly with God to keep the doctrine correct, people start making up their own.

c. The people killed the apostles and the prophets and made up their own doctrines. Thus apostasy.

d. After several generations after Christ left and the apostles were killed, the people, by their own actions, fell into apostasy.

e. Christ's original Church effectively died. Not because Christ abandoned it, but because it was rejected by the people. Which God gives man the right to do. It's called free agency.

3. Signs of the apostasy are clear. I've shown many.

4. God, for this very purpose, raised up wise and courageous men to aid in the restoring of his Church.

a. From Christopher Columbus to the founding fathers of the United States.

b. A Constitution that guarantees by law, religious freedom.

c. Now God can call a prophet again.

d. The prophet then corrected the doctrines created by man.

5. And this is what Daniel saw. That in this day, God's kingdom would never be destroyed because the people of today will never entirely turn away from it.

6. Do I believe the entire Bible is the Word of God? Truthfully.. no. Solomon Song is not scripture..at all. Neither is Proverbs. Proverbs was written by a king, not a prophet.

a. If there was no apostasy then we wouldn't have a "Bible". We'd have all the scriptures written by the prophets that were ever passed down from the time of Adam.

b. The early Catholic church had no authority to decide what was scripture and what wasn't...but they did it anyway. They threw away what they didn't like. The Great Apostasy in action.

7. Revelation 11 speaks of two prophets that will be killed in the streets of Jerusalem just before the second coming of Christ.

a. Rev 11 affirms that there are real prophets on the earth today that have the same power that Moses had. 

b. There are no prophets in the Catholic church.

c. God's house is not divided.

d. So the Catholic church can not be God's true Church.

e. If (A = B) & (B=C) then (A=C)

f. If any of this is in doubt, see item a and b.

 

 

 

 

[Cronos]

Actually, you are comparing True Church (The One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church) to a cult like the Mormons.

Since Christ is the mind and head of his Church (Eph. 4:15-16), animating the body, the members enjoy an organic spiritual union with him (John 15:1-8). It's inconceivable that he would permit his body to disintegrate under the attacks of Satan. The apostle John reminds us that Jesus is greater than Satan (1 John 4:4)(1 Timothy 3:15 describes the Church as "The household of God . . . the pillar and foundation of truth." In light of this, we find additional assurance that the house that Jesus built will not be pillaged by Satan. "No one can enter a strong man's house to plunder his property unless he first ties up the strong man. Then, he can plunder his house" (Mark 3:27; cf. Matt. 12:29). Jesus is the "strong man" guarding his household, the Church.)

The Mormon "great apostasy" doctrine is a myth.

[Cronos]

of course, you read Tim 1 out of context and in excerpted form

13What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus. 14Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.

15You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes.

16May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains.

17On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.

And if you read the writings of St.Jerome To Eustochium Written at Rome 384 A.D.

38. Look to yourself and glory in your own success and not in others' failure. Some women care for the flesh and reckon up their income and daily expenditure: such are no fit models for you. Judas was a traitor, but the eleven apostles did not waver. Phygellus and Alexander made shipwreck; but the rest continued to run the race of faith.

[Cronos]

you must read the Bible in entirety, here is Matt 28:18-20 from the NIV

18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

NOTE: And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age --> No false Mormon idea of grate apostasy.

And the KJV

18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

[Cronos]

from the above link by MHG

In July of 1835, an Irishman named Michael Chandler brought an exhibit of four Egyptian mummies and papyri to Kirtland, Ohio, then the home of the Mormons. The papyri contained Egyptian hieroglyphics. In 1835 hieroglyphics were unreadable.

As Prophet and Seer of the Church, Joseph Smith was given permission to look at the papyri scrolls in the exhibit and to everyone's shock, revealed that "one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt."1 The Church bought the exhibit for $2400. Joseph finished the translation of the Book of Abraham some time later, but the book of Joseph was never translated. The papyri were lost soon afterwards and thought to have been destroyed in a fire in Chicago in 1871. There was, therefore, no way to validate Joseph's translation. If the papyri were re-discovered and translated it would either prove or disprove the abilities of Joseph as a prophet of God. After all, he was supposed to be a prophet and have the abilities of a Seer as the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham supposedly proved.

In October of 1880 The Pearl of Great Price, a collection of writings, which contained the book of Abraham, was recognized as scripture by the Mormon Church

To every one’s surprise, in 1966 the papyri were rediscovered in one of the vault rooms of the New York’s metropolitan Museum of Art. The Deseret News of Salt Lake City on Nov. 27, 1967 acknowledged the rediscovery of the papyri. On the back of the papyri were "drawings of a temple and maps of the Kirtland, Ohio area."2 There could be no doubt that this was the original document from which Joseph Smith translated the book of Abraham.

With the papyri rediscovered and Egyptian hieroglyphics decipherable since the late 1800's, it would then be an easy task of translating the papyri and proving once and for all that Joseph Smith was a prophet with the gift of "Seer" as he and the Mormon church have claimed. This would then prove the truth of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham and would vindicate Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God.

Joseph Smith said that Facsimile No. 1 was of a bird as the "Angel of the Lord" with "Abraham fastened upon an altar," "being offered up as a sacrifice by a false priest. The pots under the altar were various gods "Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, Pharaoh," etc.

In reality, this is "an embalming scene showing the deceased lying on a lion-couch."3

In the original papyri, this drawing is attached to hieroglyphics (See figure A) from which Joseph derived the beginning of the book of Abraham which begins with the words, "In the Land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my father, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence"(1:1). In reality, the hieroglyphics translate as, "Osiris shall be conveyed into the Great Pool of Khons -- and likewise Osiris Hor, justified, born to Tikhebyt, justified -- after his arms have been placed on his heart and the Breathing permit (which [Isis] made and has writing on its inside and outside) has been wrapped in royal linen and placed under his left arm near his heart; the rest of the mummy-bandages should be wrapped over it. The man for whom this book was copied will breath forever and ever as the bas of the gods do."

"It is the opening portion of an Egyptian Shait en Sensen, or Book of Breathings . . . a late funerary text that grew out of the earlier and more complex Book of the Dead." "This particular scroll was prepared (as determined by handwriting, spelling, content, etc.) sometime during the late Ptolemaic or early Roman period (circa 50 B.C. to A.D. 50)."5

Facsimile No. 3

According to Smith, this drawing shows "Abraham sitting upon Pharaoh’s throne, by the politeness of the king, with a crown upon his head, representing the Priesthood...King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head...Signifies Abraham in Egypt...Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince..."

But this is not what the Egyptologists say is the meaning of Facsimile No. 3. Instead, it shows "the deceased being led before Osiris, god of the dead, and behind the enthroned Osiris stands his wife Isis."8

It should be quite obvious that present scholarship has revealed that Joseph Smith did not translate the Book of Abraham by the power of God as he had claimed. It follows that if he did not translate the Book of Abraham by the power of God, then it would be very easy to conclude that he did not translate the Book of Mormon by the power of God either.

When Joseph first gave his translation, hieroglyphics were undecipherable. Today they are. He was safe in saying anything he wanted to and there would be no way of proving him wrong. But with the resurfacing of the same papyri he used to do his Book of Abraham translation, and the fact that he did not in any way do it correctly, should be proof enough that Joseph Smith lied about his abilities from God. He has been shown to be a false prophet.

[Cronos]

Joe Smith and his ilk were not prophets in any sense of the word

The book of Deuteronomy provides a test for those who claim to speak for Lord and these are from chap 18:

20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

And so much of what the profit Joe said did not come to pass -- like

Winter 1829-1830. Comp Hist 1:165 Joseph had a revelation that Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery were to go to Toronto to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon to raise money.
&nbspThey went, according to the revelation, but were completely unsuccessful. Joseph Smith "inquired of God" and was told that some "revelations" are not from God. David Whitmer reports this incident in his book An Address To All Believers In Christ, Richmond, 1887, photo reprinting by Utah Lighthouse Ministry, pp 30-31

March 1831. D&C 49:9-10. The nations of the earth shall bow to the Mormon gospel or they "shall come down" and "shall be laid low of power."
&nbspNone of the nations of the earth have accepted the Mormon gospel or "bowed" to it, yet none have been "laid low" because of it.

July 1831. D&C 57:1-3 Missouri is named as the land consecrated for the gathering of the Saints and the place for the City of Zion and the building of a temple at Independence. It will be purchased by the saints "for an ever-lasting inheritance."

Sept 22-23, 1832. D&C 84:2-5, 31 Zion will be built with its temple at Independence, "in this generation". This generation shall not all pass away until the temple will be built upon the spot. Orson Pratt in 1870 reiterated the prophecy (JD 9:71, 10:344, 13:362) and insisted that it will come to pass within the generation living in 1832.

Jan 4, 1833. HC 1:315-316. Joseph Smith says "by the authority of Jesus Christ" that "not many years shall pass away" before the wicked "of this generation" will be swept from off the face of the land and the Lost Ten Tribes will be gathered to Missouri, and that "there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken, fulfilled."

Aug 2, 1833. D&C 97:18-20. Promise that if the saints are obedient the City of Zion (in Missouri) will prosper and become glorious, great and terrible, honored by the nations of the earth. Zion cannot fall or be moved out of its place.
  Mormons were driven out of Independence and from all of their settlements in Missouri in 1839. The temple lot is not owned by the Mormon church. No one living in the generation when the prophecy was made is still alive. The wicked of that generation were no more "swept from off the face of the land" than were their contemporary Mormons. The Lost Ten Tribes have not been gathered to Missouri. Nothing in all these prophecies has been fulfilled, even though the majority of the saints steadfastly followed Joseph Smith and were faithful.

Dec 16, 1833. D&C 101:17-20 Zion (Missouri) shall not be moved out of its place; the Saints will receive their inheritance there, and there is no other place than Missouri appointed by God for the gathering of the Saints.

April 23, 1834. D&C 104: 78-83. God's promise to deliver the Saints from their debts. "It is my will that you shall pay all your debts." The Lord will soften the hearts of their creditors.
Joseph Smith and other prominent Mormons had to flee Kirtland to avoid their creditors, leaving debts of thousands of dollars unpaid. Smith ultimately filed bankruptcy.

Conclusion -- Joe Smith was a false prophet, rather, he, like the other LDS folks were profits(eekers)...