I am sorry Glenn but I cannot join you

I really like Glenn Beck. Though I have never met him in person, I have often watched his television programs and thought it would be so nice to have that kind of a guy as a friend. I imagine that he is far too busy and way too inaccessible for that to become a reality, but I do genuinely like the man. He is insightful, articulate, funny, and seems to want some great things for his family and our nation. I do think that sometimes he has one or two conspiracy theories that may not be fully justified - we shall see - but all in all, Glenn seems to be a really nice guy.

I share many of the same goals as Glenn. I speak as one born in England but now very much a U.S. citizen. All my children were born here in these United States and I live and pray for America to become in all reality, "one nation under God." I love America. I sincerely believe Glenn does too.

But I do have a problem - not a problem with him as a person in any way at all, but when he asks me to join him in praying for the very same things I wish for my country, I just cannot. I can pray for these things privately, and with fellow Christians, of course, and I do. I just cannot stand with Glenn in a public setting and be comfortable while I know he is praying to a false god. How could I ever say "Amen" at the end of his prayer that people would turn back to the god he serves? I just cannot do it. That is because Glenn Beck is a Mormon. The "god" he prays to is not in any way the same God as mine.

I know.. I know.. even saying this is politically and religiously incorrect, but I cannot help but say it. When Glenn Beck speaks of "god" we need to remember that he uses a different dictionary to Christians. The God of the Bible is One in essence and eternally exists in three co-equal Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Mormons reject this completely, believing that there are many worlds controlled by different gods and the god of this planet was once a man. The Jesus of Mormonism is the begotten offspring of this exalted man in sexual union with one of his many wives, and this god lives on a planet circling a star named Kolob, and his "gospel" is the message of how you, too, can be exalted to godhood. Christianity is Monotheistic. Mormonism is the most polytheistic religion in the world. Doctrine matters folks and deceived people, deceive people!

A dear fellow Christian, in coming to understand where I am on this issue wrote to me today saying, "I like Glenn Beck and appreciate his effort to bring America back to her godly roots. He is doing a great job in uniting government, church, and media. He does speak from a Mormon perspective but still has a heart of seeing America return to God even though he might not have the same theological view as we do."

I responded by saying, " I understand you - but I cannot agree that Mormonism is in any way "godly." According to the Bible, there is nothing at all godly about false religion. Godliness is not just about acts of service, honor, integrity, courage and the like, as wonderful as these things are, but it also includes worship of the One true God and the avoidance of all forms of idolatry. Mormonism is idolatrous worship and when Glenn Beck prays, despite his intentions, he prays to a false god who cannot help either Mr. Beck or America."

I can remember reading about the worshippers of the golden calf. They had high family values and were absolutely sincere in their worship. Now I may not be the sharpest tool in the drawer, but I do tend to get the distinct impression that God didn't like the worship - yeah, the ground opening up and swallowing the worshippers.. hmmm... it does lead me to believe that God was somehow ticked, wouldn't you say?

And then I wonder what God would feel about a "prophet" in the Old Testament asking Baal to bring Israel back to its godly roots. I think in such times, he would be stoned. In Deuteronomy 18:20 God says to His people, "But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die."

God often tested His people by seeing if they would be true to Him even as false prophets tried to lure them away from Himself. God says, "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst" (Deuteronomy 13:1-5).

Thank God for grace!!! (we don't stone false prophets now) but I believe God's feelings about false worship have not changed. As Glenn Beck calls this nation to pray for some very valuable, important and even vital things, I ask now, is God testing us in the same way today? Perhaps God has raised Glenn Beck up for this very purpose, to test our hearts. Just a thought!

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord, the one and only God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the eternal One, Yahweh, the great I AM, the Alpha and Omega, who is from everlasting to everlasting.

So, though I really like you Glenn, thanks for the invite, but I cannot join you.

Nice try but a tick to predictable and doesn't address the points.

Also, how exactly do your LDS friends “Honor the teachings of Jesus Christ”

By following a false prophet?

By following men who tells us that a physical man best himself on the no longer Virgin Mary and had his way with her?

By telling us he is Satan's brother?

That he is one of a number of God's?

That his grace is only sufficient after all we can do?

That he has to wait in Joseph Smith to certify folks before he can get them into heaven?

You can attempt to call into question my efforts but they are based solidly on Truth and the Bible, period as I demonstrated in our exchange. This is not a debate, the Truth is non negotiable.

I do not know what faith you practice, I go from thinking you are LDS since you have their coy little approach, to not knowing what to think, which is even more troubling. I do know that if you are not LDS you need to learn what Mormonism is all about. You need to also be more honest in your approach.

As for the unadulterated evil, please, go ahead and demonstrate this Evil, and show where it come from the Devil himself...

Glenn Beck is a KOOK who belongs to a CULT and his cult's founders had so-called prophecies about the U.S. Constitution. Mittens Romney's and Glenn Beck's refusal to recognize that nobody in America is voting a mormon into the presidency is based upon their religious preoccupation with and belief in their cult's prophecies. They fancy themselves Saviors, literal Saviors -- just WHY do you think that Glenn Beck became obsessed with the constitution??

This is so utterly delusional, it's just pathetic.

It's such a joke that devotees of Glenn's attest that he has criticized Mitt Romney, what posers -- don't they realize that Beck belongs to a CULT, Beck is a CULTIST, and whatever Beck's Ward Bishop tells Beck to do, Beck will do.

Just pathetic.

And why aren't these delusional prophecies mentioned more often around here when posters are supposedly critiquing this cult and it's OBVIOUS political mania?

Very suspicious....

John Birch Society and Mormon Prophecies about the US Constitution

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2425050/posts

Note the words of Mormon Prophet Brigham Young:

"Will the Constitution be destroyed? No; it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, 'The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from threatened destruction.' It will be so." (Journal of Discourses,7:15.) Young also made another "prophecy" about the same circumstances:

"Brethren and sisters, our friends wish to know our feelings towards the Government. I answer, they are first rate, and we will prove it too, as you will see if you only live long enough, for that we shall live to prove it is certain, and when the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the "Mormon" Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forward and do it." (Journal of Discourses, 2:182.)

There is yet a third voice explaining this "prophecy," and that is the voice of Orson Hyde, a contemporary of Joseph Smiths because he was one of his Twelve Apostles, who wrote this, also quoted in Journal of Discourses:

"It is said that brother Joseph in his lifetime declared that the Elders of this Church should step forth at a particular time when the Constitution should be in danger, and rescue it, and save it. I believe he said something like this - that the time would come when the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he, If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church. I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it." (Journal of Discourses, 6:152) Does Vance Smith believe that this is a prophecy made by his Prophet that has yet to be fulfilled, and does he see the Birch Society in all of its endeavors striving to be the group to "step forward and do it" to save the Constitution in junction with the LDS Church? Is this why he is systematically removing longtime Birchers from leadership positions and replacing them with Mormons? Time will tell."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2425050/posts

CC, i know many who have left the church, and not become anti Mormons. BTW, my definition of an “anti” is someone who goes about trying to destroy the faith of people in a religion. Indeed, I see anti Mormons, anti Catholics, baptists, and even anti Christians. I hold them all at the same level of “respect”. In short, it's not that you left the church, that is between you and God, it's what you are choosing to do with you life and it's negative consequences on you, and on others.

IMHO, antis of all stripes do themselves far more harm by being negative all the time than they do to any religion, or belief system they oppose.

Are you an ex-Mormon, yep are you an anti, well you have declared yourself to be and your actions give me no reason to question your word. I am really sorry you had a bad experience with a bishop and what sounds like a loser of a husband, but in truth, there are people of all stripes in all religions, what is the net effect of the religion? is it a positive message? No good thing can come from Satan. I believe that almost all churches have some redeeming qualities, anti’s don't appear to have that opinion.

anyway, gotta go, sorry this post was so long, I didn't have the time to write a short one. /sic

I never thought I would have to be the one to say it, but The Founders did not post guards at our borders to keep those of other religions out.

Nobody's talking about that, at all. (You don't seem to realize that my extended family, whom I dearly love, is Mormon). What? Do you think I want them booted from the country? No. This is a good country for them to become saved in knowing the true Jesus.

Indeed. Had a guard been posted that kept my initial Mormon immigrant ancestor out, then I'd probably not even be on earth.

You've taken this on a road nobody's even going on this thread. If Mormons want to worship as peculiar Mormons, they have that religious freedom to express themselves. What Christians especially object to is Mormons branding themselves as "Christians." And that's understandable. I mean, Mormons don't like it when fundamentalist Mormons are portrayed as mainstream Mormons, so why the craving to allow mainstream Mormons to be mainstream Mormons, but the Christian identity has to become obliterated (and believe me, saying "Christians" can become gods is outright blasphemous). If Mormons would be Mormons and would stop trying to counterfeit themselves as another faith, the "collision" component would be lessened.

But, of course, even if the Christians had never said a word about Mormons, you still have the problem of how Lds, Inc. slanders Christianity 24/7 (online; in its curricula; in its "scriptures"; in its magazines; in its bookstores; via their missionaries; by BYU-TV, Deseret News, Mormon Times, KSL, & other media outlets it owns; by their general conferences; by way of their members; etc.)
What's so funny is that some posters can't tolerate thousands of thread comments we make; but when it comes to Lds Inc. spending millions of $ to portray Christians and Christianity in an adverse way, there's nary a peep of concern.

So when are even those who are nominally "Christian" who object to "anti" behavior going to write Salt Lake City & tell them to knock off the Christian bashing?

When is SLC going to hear it that it's not "kosher" to label all Christians as "apostates."...
And that Joseph Smith's first vision of calling all professing believers of Christian sects "corrupt" isn't very heartwarming...
And Smith's first vision of calling 100% of Christian creeds isn't accurate or helpful to "getting along"...
And implying or outright stating that the Christian church operates under the broad umbrella of the "church of Satan" doesn't offer forth a "peace offering" (1 Nephi 14:9-10, Book of Mormon)
And stating in their "scripture-doctrine" that the Lds church "is the only true and living church on the face of the earth" (D&C 1:30) should actually get all those nominal religious folks riled up (you know, the ones who usually object to exclusive monopolies when it comes to other religious settings).

Stop preaching to the choir and go witness to the world; the people in here are trying to save the Republic

Two problems there: #1 the true gospel of Jesus Christ is both for Christians and non-Christians alike to hear. (We don't have two different versions).
#2 What you've stated is exactly the problem I mentioned in post#651 and Colorcountry mentioned earlier in the thread..where the "people...are trying to save..."

CC asks a good Q: "Who is going to save this nation? Is it God or Glenn Beck?"

The Old Testament mentions that no man can ransom his brother for a good reason (Ps. 49). The task is so large and so difficult to save even one man, let alone a whole nation; no one man can do it. And no humanistic collective "tower of Babel" enterprise can do it. In fact, the Babelist approach is offensive to God -- where we try to reach Him from the ground up vs. receiving the incarnate Son of God and His Holy Spirit from the heaven on down.

False ecumenism is exactly that.

Are you an ex-Mormon, yep are you an anti...

Delf, you know I'm actually trying to change my habit of assuming Mormons believe all things "Mormon." I'm seeing that younger generational Mormons tend to be a bit of all things...
...part secular...part HS & college-campus secular...part multi-media bathed secular...
...certainly culturally Mormon...but not necessarily doctrinally through and through Mormon...
...some have picked up more from the Bible than other Mormons...
...some have picked up more emphasis from Evangelical Christianity...
...some Lds, especially younger New Age, may have even some New Age thought tinged into their beliefs -- or beliefs from other non-Mormon, non-Christian sources...

My point? While we still need to have a lexicon for how our culture currently describes things, overbroad knee-jerk labels & stereotypes are becoming less helpful all the time -- at least the broad overarching labels. Our labels need to be more specific to head off automatic assumptions.

I mean, what is the current Mormon ad campaign if anything than to show the diversity of Mormons? And it is. You perhaps have 20% who are "temple" Mormons. You have "jack" Mormons. You have cafeteria Mormons...and you can probably come up with a list much longer than mine. And then even with these sub-groups, are individual unique Mormons.

The key thing is that we have to get know each person individually. We're all unique; though different groups share many characteristics and beliefs.

Therefore, I declare that the "anti" label is one of these. A person can be pro-Mormon the person and still be anti-belief system re: MormonISM. A person like Szonian can dearly love his Mormon wife and still oppose the system.

We are ALL opposed to some ideology...hence, in that sense, we are ALL "anti"...something. (Some beliefs are just easier to not object to or assimilate into your own worldviews than others).

What we object to comes down to provocation, passion, opportunity, and calling.

A parent practicing "tough love" on a teen going off the deep end into a brainwashing cult is actually engaged in more pro behavior than anti behavior...because they have the best interest of that teen at heart. And if our "best interest" is informed by the Bible and led by the Holy Spirit, then we have a Source beyond us guiding us.

We'll never lose the labels. (And I'm not advocating that we do away with them). We simply need to be slower & more cautious before we toss them out. We need to get to know people better.

Otherwise, what I find is that people use labels as an excuse to automatically write off what people are saying.

There's one FR poster who I use to view as a thread disruptor. I then reviewed his decade long posting history to see what he had gone through spiritually and found out we had a lot more in common than I thought. My respect for him increased. My understanding did, too.

We still clashed, but I was able to see him more as a multi-dimensional person, vs. me simply writing him off.

(That's all I'm suggesting we do).

If wrong we did to call them,
By honour bound they came;
Let not Thy Wrath befall them,
But deal to us the blame.

Well, this part parallels the Bible -- the sentiments of the apostle Paul, anyway, about his fellow Jews:

1I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. (Romans 9:1-5)

So cheers to Kipling on expressing such sentiments so well!

However, on the first part, Kipling was expressing wishful thinking outside of the hope of Jesus Christ:
For those who kneel beside us
At altars not Thine own,
Who lack the lights that guide us,
Lord, let their faith atone.

Our Light is the Bible and Jesus Christ; the Holy Spirit enlightens us.

Matthew 25:1-12 expresses how those who lack oil for their lamps -- oil being the symbol of the Holy Spirit -- do not have the requisite light to traverse when the BrideGroom (Jesus Christ) comes. Jesus, not me, said that those lacking such readiness will be locked out:
10But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'
12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

Faith always has an object. Naked "faith" for faith's sake outside of Jesus Christ is not enough. The word "atone" means to be "reconciled." So Kipling was expressing wishful thinking that "faith" (and the limits of poetry are that we have to imagine he's talking about a faith in God minus Jesus Christ) would be enough to reconcile them to "God" -- however they imagine Him to be.

The apostle Paul explained reconciliation and the vitality of Jesus in this to the church at Corinth:

18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Cor. 5:18-21)

Ray, if Christ were irrelevant to whether people could be saved ... if people could do "end runs" around Christ and not even have to bother relating to Him, then why bother sending Him as a man? Why bother having Him die such a horrible death on the cross? Why bother making Jesus to BE our very sin (2 Cor. 5:21)?

There's no righteousness outside of Jesus Christ. He's it! (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Cor. 1:30). Either we trust Christ to be our very righteousness or God's eyes, or it ain't there. There's no other "gameplan" God designed.

But this is what Rudyard Kipling REALLY thought of Mormons.

AMERICAN NOTES By Rudyard Kipling

By great good luck the evil-minded train, already delayed twelve
hours by a burned bridge, brought me to the city on a Saturday by
way of that valley which the Mormons, over their efforts, had
caused to blossom like the rose. Twelve hours previously I had
entered into a new world where, in conversation, every one was
either a Mormon or a Gentile. It is not seemly for a free and
independent citizen to dub himself a Gentile, but the Mayor of
Ogden—which is the Gentile city of the valley—told me that
there must be some distinction between the two flocks.

Long before the fruit orchards of Logan or the shining levels of
the Salt Lake had been reached, that mayor—himself a Gentile,
and one renowned for his dealings with the Mormons—told me that
the great question of the existence of the power within the power
was being gradually solved by the ballot and by education.

All the beauty of the valley could not make me forget it. And
the valley is very fair. Bench after bench of land, flat as a
table against the flanks of the ringing hills, marks where the
Salt Lake rested for awhile in its collapse from an inland sea to
a lake fifty miles long and thirty broad.

There are the makings of a very fine creed about Mormonism. To
begin with, the Church is rather more absolute than that of Rome.
Drop the polygamy plank in the platform, but on the other hand
deal lightly with certain forms of excess; keep the quality of
the recruit down to the low mental level, and see that the best
of all the agricultural science available is in the hands of the
elders, and there you have a first-class engine for pioneer work.
The tawdry mysticism and the borrowing from Freemasonry serve the
low caste Swede and Dane, the Welshman and the Cornish cotter,
just as well as a highly organized heaven.

Then I went about the streets and peeped into people’s front
windows, and the decorations upon the tables were after the
manner of the year 1850. Main Street was full of country folk
from the desert, come in to trade with the Zion Mercantile
Co-operative Institute. The Church, I fancy, looks after the
finances of this thing, and it consequently pays good dividends.

The faces of the women were not lovely. In-deed, but for the
certainty that ugly persons are just as irrational in the matter
of undivided love as the beautiful, it seems that polygamy was a
blessed institution for the women, and that only the dread
threats of the spiritual power could drive the hulking,
board-faced men into it. The women wore hideous garments, and
the men appeared to be tied up with strings.

They would market all that afternoon, and on Sunday go to the
praying-place. I tried to talk to a few of them, but they spoke
strange tongues, and stared and behaved like cows. Yet one
woman, and not an altogether ugly one, confided to me that she
hated the idea of Salt Lake City being turned into a show-place
for the amusement of the Gentiles.

“If we ‘have our own institutions, that ain’t no reason why
people should come ‘ere and stare at us, his it?”

The dropped “h” betrayed her.

“And when did you leave England?” I said.

“Summer of ‘84. I am Dorset,” she said. “The Mormon agent was
very good to us, and we was very poor. Now we’re better off—my
father, an’ mother, an’ me.”

“Then you like the State?”

She misunderstood at first.

“Oh, I ain’t livin’ in the state of polygamy. Not me, yet. I
ain’t married. I like where I am. I’ve got things o’ my
own—and some land.”

“But I suppose you will—”

“Not me. I ain’t like them Swedes an’ Danes. I ain’t got
nothin’ to say for or against polygamy. It’s the elders’
business, an’ between you an’ me, I don’t think it’s going on
much longer. You’ll ‘ear them in the ‘ouse to-morrer talkin’ as
if it was spreadin’ all over America. The Swedes, they think it
his. I know it hisn’t.”

“But you’ve got your land all right?”

“Oh, yes; we’ve got our land, an’ we never say aught against
polygamy, o’ course—father, an’ mother, an’ me.”

On a table-land overlooking all the city stands the United States
garrison of infantry and artillery. The State of Utah can do
nearly anything it pleases until that much-to-be-desired hour
when the Gentile vote shall quietly swamp out Mormonism; but the
garrison is kept there in case of accidents. The big,
shark-mouthed, pig-eared, heavy-boned farmers sometimes take to
their creed with wildest fanaticism, and in past years have made
life excessively unpleasant for the Gentile when he was few in
the land. But to-day, so far from killing openly or secretly, or
burning Gentile farms, it is all the Mormon dare do to feebly try
to boycott the interloper. His journals preach defiance to the
United States Government, and in the Tabernacle on a Sunday the
preachers follow suit.

When I went there, the place was full of people who would have
been much better for a washing.

A man rose up and told them that they were the chosen of God, the
elect of Israel; that they were to obey their priests, and that
there was a good time coming. I fancy that they had heard all
this before so many times it produced no impression whatever,
even as the sublimest mysteries of another faith lose salt
through constant iteration. They breathed heavily through their
noses, and stared straight in front of them—impassive as flat
fish.

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