Posted on 08/31/2010 6:42:35 PM PDT by Gamecock
I really like Glenn Beck. Though I have never met him in person, I have often watched his television programs and thought it would be so nice to have that kind of a guy as a friend. I imagine that he is far too busy and way too inaccessible for that to become a reality, but I do genuinely like the man. He is insightful, articulate, funny, and seems to want some great things for his family and our nation. I do think that sometimes he has one or two conspiracy theories that may not be fully justified - we shall see - but all in all, Glenn seems to be a really nice guy.
I share many of the same goals as Glenn. I speak as one born in England but now very much a U.S. citizen. All my children were born here in these United States and I live and pray for America to become in all reality, "one nation under God." I love America. I sincerely believe Glenn does too.
But I do have a problem - not a problem with him as a person in any way at all, but when he asks me to join him in praying for the very same things I wish for my country, I just cannot. I can pray for these things privately, and with fellow Christians, of course, and I do. I just cannot stand with Glenn in a public setting and be comfortable while I know he is praying to a false god. How could I ever say "Amen" at the end of his prayer that people would turn back to the god he serves? I just cannot do it. That is because Glenn Beck is a Mormon. The "god" he prays to is not in any way the same God as mine.
I know.. I know.. even saying this is politically and religiously incorrect, but I cannot help but say it. When Glenn Beck speaks of "god" we need to remember that he uses a different dictionary to Christians. The God of the Bible is One in essence and eternally exists in three co-equal Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Mormons reject this completely, believing that there are many worlds controlled by different gods and the god of this planet was once a man. The Jesus of Mormonism is the begotten offspring of this exalted man in sexual union with one of his many wives, and this god lives on a planet circling a star named Kolob, and his "gospel" is the message of how you, too, can be exalted to godhood. Christianity is Monotheistic. Mormonism is the most polytheistic religion in the world. Doctrine matters folks and deceived people, deceive people!
A dear fellow Christian, in coming to understand where I am on this issue wrote to me today saying, "I like Glenn Beck and appreciate his effort to bring America back to her godly roots. He is doing a great job in uniting government, church, and media. He does speak from a Mormon perspective but still has a heart of seeing America return to God even though he might not have the same theological view as we do."
I responded by saying, " I understand you - but I cannot agree that Mormonism is in any way "godly." According to the Bible, there is nothing at all godly about false religion. Godliness is not just about acts of service, honor, integrity, courage and the like, as wonderful as these things are, but it also includes worship of the One true God and the avoidance of all forms of idolatry. Mormonism is idolatrous worship and when Glenn Beck prays, despite his intentions, he prays to a false god who cannot help either Mr. Beck or America."
I can remember reading about the worshippers of the golden calf. They had high family values and were absolutely sincere in their worship. Now I may not be the sharpest tool in the drawer, but I do tend to get the distinct impression that God didn't like the worship - yeah, the ground opening up and swallowing the worshippers.. hmmm... it does lead me to believe that God was somehow ticked, wouldn't you say?
And then I wonder what God would feel about a "prophet" in the Old Testament asking Baal to bring Israel back to its godly roots. I think in such times, he would be stoned. In Deuteronomy 18:20 God says to His people, "But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die."
God often tested His people by seeing if they would be true to Him even as false prophets tried to lure them away from Himself. God says, "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst" (Deuteronomy 13:1-5).
Thank God for grace!!! (we don't stone false prophets now) but I believe God's feelings about false worship have not changed. As Glenn Beck calls this nation to pray for some very valuable, important and even vital things, I ask now, is God testing us in the same way today? Perhaps God has raised Glenn Beck up for this very purpose, to test our hearts. Just a thought!
As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord, the one and only God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the eternal One, Yahweh, the great I AM, the Alpha and Omega, who is from everlasting to everlasting.
So, though I really like you Glenn, thanks for the invite, but I cannot join you.
You know, almost three years ago, this FReeper thread popped up: 80 Percent of Americans Would Vote for a Mormon -- whereby...
...46% of Americans said they would vote for an atheist as POTUS;
...48% said "no" they wouldn't (and in reality, the other 6% were undecided enough to conclude they weren't sure they would vote for an atheist, either...in reality, making it a 46/54 split. [Shortly after that another FReeper thread which I can't immediately pin down had similar polling results for those who would/would not vote for a Muslim as POTUS.
I believe what I said then is quite relevant to your comment, so I'll cite myself:
****
OK...any moment now (tapping my foot)...looking stage left (like waiting for the entre' of actors to move stage-center @ a Christmas play)..."Where are they?"
"Where's the FREEPER bigot-patrol?" The "FREEPER tolerant crowd?" The "FREEPER we're-here-to-lecture-uh-remind-you-about-'religious-liberty'-issues?" The "we're-not-voting-for-a-pastor-in-chief crowd?" The "religious-beliefs-of-a-candidate-have-absolutely-NOTHING-to-do-with-voting-for-a-POTUS" lecture circuit folks?
We can't wait all day for them!!!
It's obvious from this poll that 54% of Americans said they wouldn't vote for an atheist.
Obviously the majority of Americans need to hear the above-mentioned FREEPER rants & invectives hurled against them...Are they "bigots" for holding someone's spiritual beliefs (atheism) seemingly against them? What are they? Voting for a "pastor-in-chief?" Haven't they ever heard of "religious liberty" or what the Puritans came to this country to escape?
(FREEPERS, please fill in all the appropo lectures I've failed to mention...I wasn't planning on giving this lecture but the bigot patrol is nowhere to be found)
****
What's always been of interest to me ever since pollsters were measuring the Mittster's POTUS possibilities, is how all the arguments raised by people applied equally to whether you would consider somebody's Muslim or atheist beliefs as well as Mormon. The lecture-circuit riders would circle the wagon for Romney, preaching "Hey, you! Yeah, you, Mr. or Mrs. Individual Voter...if you dare consider the Hare Krishna aspect of this candidate...the Moonie ties of this candidate...the Satanic ties of this candidate...the Wiccan beliefs & practices of this candidate...then we'll accuse you of weakening the very foundation of the constitution!!!"
IOW, 'Vote for the Hare Krishna dude or else!!!' By this standard, we couldn't even take into consideration a candidate's expectation of 72 virgins awaiting them post-'martyrdom' death as a glimpse of their broader religious perspectives!
Well, I don't think you'd be able to claim the Bible as backing for your contention. The Bible shows that true successful leadership in public office is done by those who fear the true Lord & who do not worship false gods/idols. The OT is replete w/ such examples.
The Israelites had secular kings, not "pastors in chief." But that didn't mean that these kings' ministrations were any less a "ministry." Romans 13 makes it clear that public office is also a "ministry." Those who contend against this are openly militating against this Scripture. It doesn't mean that public officeholders administrate in a parochial way; it just means that public office is a "ministry of service" just like the soup kitchen down the street.
History (biblical & otherwise) shows that the more pagan or counterfeit god that a leader elevates, the more trouble that leader's "exhaust" settles on the people-at-large. Kings & presidents need all the grace, mercy, & guidance possible, since God gets more credit for preserving & directing leaders than we care to give Him credit for. Therefore, one who worships a false god & has no true relationship w/the living God is stifling access to God's resources; & a nation may suffer for that.
You know this sounds very logical and airtight, but you're forgetting at least one thing: What we are exemplifying to both those who are young as well as those who are vulnerable to being swept up into the cults.
When people endorse and sanction by joining in prayer with say, a Mormon leading that prayer, they are conveying to those I just mentioned that we share the same exact god. Yet the Mormon god has no ultimate authority; he's just a man-turned-god who got the god job and is answerable to a "council of gods." He is a stationary god, bound by his flesh & bones, and isn't everywhere all at once.
You see, at some point the description of who is being called upon becomes so twisted and so removed from the Reality of that Being, He is no longer recognizable.
If you and I each struck up online relationships with a guy named "Guy," but found out later that your online correspondent named "Guy" was only counterfeiting himself by masquerading as the other "Guy," there's no way you could convince me that just because they shared the same outward identity that we were talking to the same "Guy."
Do you forget that "identity theft" didn't begin with 20th century financial rip-offs?
#1...this wasn't any ole "public event." It was bathed in references to God and Jesus Christ. It was a "spiritual public event."
#2...Many Lds have conveyed to me that the proper way to pray is to pray to Heavenly Father in Jesus' Name. And despite multiple references in 3 Nephi 19 and elsewhere in the Book of Mormon of those who prayed directly to the Mormon jesus, many Lds -- having been "trained" by their leaders NOT to pray directly to Jesus -- would be quite uncomfortable having to join in with a Christian praying directly to Jesus.
IOW, you make it sound like this is simply a "one-way street" -- when in reality, the discomfort goes both ways.
(If you were auditioning to become a god, ya better believe you'd want an "image" of being "pretty good folk.")
Islam is the only religion at war with the US and the West. The rest of ‘em get a pass from me...
And yet even with Muslims, the apostle Paul's words in Eph. 6 apply -- that our real battle isn't against flesh & blood. (Why does that passage seem to zoom on by so many who claim the Name of Jesus Christ as Lord?)
IOW, at some point the way we're going to have to "destroy" some of our enemies is to actually befriend them and reconcile them to the Son of the Living God.
If the Christian church worldwide took your directive seriously -- to give all non-Christian religions "a pass," why they'd call all the missionaries home. If you note, the Lds church doesn't do that. Over the past three years, the Lds have been averaging 55,000 missionaries out there.
They don't give the Christian households -- the Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox -- a pass. They go boldly up to each door and convey that a universal apostasy occurred & they are there to proclaim a "restoration." [Uh, ya know ya may want to note that when a Mormon mentions a "universal apostasy," he's subtly calling you an "apostate" right to your face...you know, just like Muslims believe all Christians are "infidels."]
I actually have to commend the Lds missionaries for their zealousness & boldness. They think they have something worth sharing that's distinctive. (Oh, it's distinctive alright).
Too many members of Christian churches want to pretend that we share the same Jesus and seek the coward's way out of even approaching Mormons or people of other faiths. The apostle Paul recognized there was indeed "another" Jesus: For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached... (2 Cor. 11:4)
Too many members of Christian churches think "they know better" than the apostle Paul.
Sheesh. What a ridiculous decision. Go sit on your island and never join with any good men (or women) unless they are your exact same brand of faith!!!!
You even quote from the Bible speaking about a completely different religion from yours (Judaism!) as your example to not join Glenn Beck. I believe he was trying to draw all good and G-dfearing people TOGETHER to fight for this country. You just want to drive people apart.
Why do people mislead like that, this is about Mormonism, why pretend otherwise?
Assumption #1 in this statement...that distinct faiths are merely (roughly, more or less) the "same thing" -- only packaged differently by distinct "brands"...you know, like it's mere consumer toothpaste tastes.
Well, a given "faith" has an object of that trust. In Mormonism, the true object of that faith is self: If you go to Lds.org (URL: http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=244ed0640b96b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD) -- July 1978 Ensign mag article, you can find this quote from the 12th Lds "prophet," Spencer W. Kimball:
Man can transform himself and he must. Man has in himself the seeds of godhood, which can germinate and grow and develop. As the acorn becomes the oak, the mortal man becomes a god. It is within his power to lift himself by his very bootstraps from the plane on which he finds himself to the plane on which he should be.
Christianity is NOT a self-elevated bootstraps faith.
Your #2 false assumption is that Christians and Christian leaders won't ever "join" to work together with Mormons. I've said several times on these threads that Christians and Lds work well together in Boy Scout mtgs on behalf of youth; or in food pantries on behalf of the poor; or working together to pass Prop 8 and protect marriage in CA.
But this event was a spiritually focused one -- almost like Bahai faith 2.0 version -- with Beck in the self-designated head cheerleader role. If he wants Bahai 2.0, he should be more upfront about that.
I doubt Mormons would "love" a Christian pied piper who came along and advocated to Mormons that they begin to pray directly to Jesus (Lds leaders train their adherents to NEVER pray directly to Jesus -- it's always indirectly to the Father in Jesus' name.) So what? If Mormons don't like Christians praying directly to Jesus, are you going to tell them, too, to get off their so-called "island?"
You just want to drive people apart.
Well, you wrap this up "nicely" with poor assumption #3 -- that we're somehow all cozily singing Kum ba yah -- and that somehow you think we've been doing that for 180 years.
...let's just pretend for a moment that not a single FR poster has ever said one single thing "negative" about any Mormon belief. Would that somehow muster your fantasy that we're "united???" Really?
Have you ever read Mormon "scriptures" and what they specifically said about all Christian sects?
Do the Mormons portray a "show of unity" with the Christian church?
* Is it a "peace offering" by the Mormon church for them to cite the Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:9-10, which claims that only 2 churches exist -- the church of the Lamb (the Mormon church) -- and the church of Satan (the Christian church)?
* Is it Kum-ba-yahville for Mormons to claim that every single Christian professing believer is "corrupt" (Joseph Smith used the word "all" [applying to "all" such believers]?
* Is it "Unity Central" for Mormons to claim that 100% of Christian creeds are "an abomination" to their god?
[Note: These statements weren't just from 'overpassionate' sermons given by Smith; they were claims from the original vision of Mormonism, which a later generation of Mormons decided was worth counting as 'scripture'...look it up on Google for yourselves...just put in Joseph Smith - History + "Pearl of Great Price" ... read verses 18-20]
I mean, how ludicrous...to somehow claim somebody is trying to "divide" us when you don't utter a single phrase about what Mormons have called us Christians for 180 years -- and to boot, claimed this is what "God" thinks of us!
Do you think...that Beck, a disciple of Joseph Smith, is "honoring" the Christian church when Beck believes what Smith said in Doctrines & Covenant 1:30 -- that the Mormon church "is the ONLY true and living church on the face of the earth"???
So if the Christian church isn't "true," what choice is left in Smith's & Beck's & other Mormons' lexicon?
If the Christian church isn't "living," what choice is left in Smith's & Beck's & other Mormons' lexicon?
Is there something less than "true" that is honorable?
Is there something less than "alive" that isn't worth burying?
How is that "unifying" for two-faced Mormons to say wonderful things to our face, and then turn the other way, pull out their wallets, and pay for these above comments to be published as written slander in over 100 languages spread around the world?
...and disseminated online 24/7?
...and by person-to-person (52,000 Lds missionaries & Lds teachers using curricula as ALL of them call ALL Christians "apostates")?
So when Muslims call all Christians "infidels," we're just supposed to say, "Why, how flattering! You know our loving Mormon brothers and sisters say the same thing of us only they use the 'loving' byword of 'apostates.' Isn't that just precious? Come. Let's all join in the Kum-ba-yah refrain, lest those nasty FReepers come & try to 'divide & conquer us.'"
Was Jefferson a self-designated revivalist holding outdoor revivals & pretending like he had the original concept for the Bahai faith?
Beck had rabbis, priests, and even an imam or two up there with him, which makes him LESS of a bigot than some.
Well, by all means. When Beck holds Revival 2.0, he can "grow" his religious stage and then the prayer leaders can be traded among a Jehovah's Witness practitioner, a Wiccan priestess, a Hare Krishna dancing intercessor, a New Age "Christ consciousness" adherent, and a Scientologist. I mean if more frontstage "religious unity" somehow equates in your "magic formula" to "less bigotry," then why stop with a Rabbi and an Imam and whoever else?
Ben Franklin said it, I believe: "If we do not hang together, we shall all hang separately."
So all the religions should just have cross-pollinized "revivals" in order to "hang together?" On exactly what grounds are you going to include some religious reps and exclude others? What boundaries will be operative, and if there are some, why and how?
So because the Lds church currently has 52,000 missionaries out there, and perhaps your own denomination has a paltry number by contrast, are you likewise going to conclude, "Well, I think these Lds missionaries are on theologically shakey ground, but they are doing the job we all should have been doing in outreach, but didn't or couldn't. So I'm going to invite them over to our church so they can lead an outdoor revival...and so that our young people can see how we Christians endorse Mormon-led revival meetings...so they in turn, can see that there's really no distinction between them joining your denomination or the Mormons."???
I think after this generation of Christian church members continues such a compromise, only to lose more & more of their own teens & young adults to Lds proselytism, the true "wake-up" call might finally come when Mormon convert daughter Jane calls up Baptist Mom & Dad & tells them she's getting married in the Mormon temple & they are disinvited because the Mormons are so much into "kum ba yah" weddings.../NOT
Well, the liberal Democrats threw down their gauntlet with their own "Messianic humanistic, socialistic savior," Imam-O-bama, as a pinch-hitter for Jesus Christ. So many conservatives got together and decided that they, too, could counter with with their own version of a "Messianic, humanistic conservative savior," Glenn "Anti-Heck" Beck. [Mormons don't believe very many wind up in hell]
And since a lot of FREEPERS are more anti-Obama than they are pro the real Jesus Christ, guess what? Why, that "works."
And what's soooooo ironic is that many of these FREEPERS are the first to hurl labels of "antis" at those proclaiming to be cautious in this Mormon "revival"...yet their identity is often so wrapped up only in anti-Obama-ism & anti-socialism.
The fact is we are all "anti" some ideology. It's just that some FREEPERS have determined that some ideologies (like becoming a god; like God the Father has a belly button; like there's a mom-god) are more "assimilationist" to their worldviews than others.
(Oh, your god has a belly button, belongs to a "council of gods," and has said that only married temple Mormons will live with him forever? Hmmm....somehow I just don't think that's the Catholic version...better re-check your catechism)
See...this is what happens when people allow popular myths coupled with Mormon PRism to overrule truth.
As a direct descendent of a Mormon leader, and one who has more primary resource Lds docs than you can shake a stick at, the "god" the Mormons worship was once a spirit/intelligence supposedly just like you...who underwent a human birth...worked his way up and got the got job. (Don't believe me? Just Google "Doctrine and Covenants 93, vv. 29, 33 + Google Lds prophet "Lorenz Snow" and the word "couplet" -- a trite phrase Mormons use to describe how Heavenly Father was supposedly once a man -- and how you, too, can grow to full godhood status).
And then research how Mormons claim an eternal life with Heavenly Father only for themselves -- and in fact, not just any Mormon, but ONLY those who have maintained their "temple recommend" (which may be only 20% of Mormons).
Actually, you have it so badly turned around that you've replaced Who saves without perhaps realizing it.
Christians don't believe a church body, denomination, or individual church "saves" or is the "only way." (Whether it's theirs or anybody else's)
And to show even more how you have it completely turned around -- that it's actually the Mormon church that bills itself as the exclusive way -- please read these two quotes:
"This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life" (Conference Report, April, 1961, p. 119)
Utter idolatry! Jesus Christ alone qualifies as the object of faith -- He Himself constitutes "the Way, the truth, and the life. NO man comes to the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
The Living Way is a Person, not a church!!!
The Lds church, thru its teachings by the likes of...
Marion Romney -- cousin of Mitt Romney's father & who was one of the three highest leaders of the church in the 1960s -- has engaged in open idolatry in erecting substitutes in favor of the blood of Christ as the Living Way.
Chris, are you consistent, then? Are you quick to label the Mormon church as a bigoted bunch when you see this quote, or when you see Doctrine & Covenants 1:30 -- Lds "scripture" -- that claims that the Lds church "is the ONLY true and living church on the face of the earth???"
I think they should worry more about their own soul and not being welcome in heaven with the attitude their church has instilled in them!
Please tell us, Chris, then why Lds insist that those who are not married temple Mormons will not live forever in the presence of Heavenly Father? (And here you're worried about the "attitude" of non-Mormons?)
The 10th president-"prophet" of the church was Joseph Fielding Smith. In his book, Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol. 1, p. 81, he wrote about the so-called middle kingdom of heaven -- supposedly called the terrestrial kingdom: "Those who were honorable men who will be permitted to go to the terrestrial kingdom will be blessed with ministrations from the celestial kingdom. They will be privileged with visitations from Jesus Christ but will be denied the presence of the Father."
Ouch...
Well; when your 'religion' is CONSTANTLY looking for something NEW; ALWAYS awaiting a WORD from GOD; ALWAYS hoping for MORE clarification from PERSONAGES in authority; what do you epect?
After all; the LAST Golden Haired Boy has gotten quite a bit tarnished and shop worn.
It is also a blessing that as he tells us in Jude that we are to snatch from the fire those who have fallen into such traps, who have fallen to the Evil Ones will knowingly or otherwise.
Again thank you for giving support to the truth of the Lord in his efforts to stop these efforts of the Evil One in the name of the LDS.
As far as preaching to the choir, it has been asleep for almost 50 years, that is why we are in this political fight today.
There is no separation of politics and the Spiritual in God's universe.
Go looking in the mirror darling...
I have two very dear friends who are members of the LDS Church. Both honor the teachings of Jesus Christ.
On this thread, I find unadulterated evil spewing from the keyboards of "supposedly" brothers and sisters in Christ.
Maybe Christ on this thread is keyword for Mohamed? Anyway, you and ilk may have earned yourselves a special place in the hereafter... And it ain't sitting next to Christ.
So, if I were Y'all, I'd reexamine the stupidity of trying to take God's job...
Is that plain enough for you?
My only response to your arguments comes from Kipling’s Hymn Before Action:
...
For those who kneel beside us
At altars not Thine own,
Who lack the lights that guide us,
Lord, let their faith atone.
If wrong we did to call them,
By honour bound they came;
Let not Thy Wrath befall them,
But deal to us the blame.
...
If you can’t understand that, you have my pity.
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