Posted on 06/07/2010 7:28:42 AM PDT by topcat54
I knew it would happen. The latest incident in Israel has brought out the prophetic speculators again. “A council of rabbis in Israel says their nation’s conflict with Turkey over a flotilla of ‘aid’ ships headed for the blockaded Gaza Strip controlled by the terrorist Hamas organization just may be the beginning of the ‘Gog and Magog process where the world is against us, but which ends with the third and final redemption’” (see here ). Picking up on the story, Christian prophecy speculator Joel Rosenberg takes a similar position but with some caution:
There is growing interest in the Ezekiel prophecies and whether they could play out in our lifetime. I believe it is still too early to say anything definitively. But I agree that current events are strikingly consistent with the prophecies and I believe it is possible that we could see these events unfold soon. The mention of “Gomer” in Ezekiel, for example, refers to the modern-day State of Turkey which will be an enemy of Israel and part of a Russian-Iranian alliance against the Jewish state. I’m not saying the prophecy will necessarily come to pass soon, but I can’t rule out that possibility. We’ve never seen a convergence of geopolitical and spiritual events so consistent with Ezekiel 38–39 in history like we are seeing today (see here ).One of the arguments used to futurize Ezekiel’s prophecy 2600 years from the time it was written is the claim that the Hebrew word rosh in Ezekiel 38:2–3 and 39:1 sounds like Russia. So then why doesn’t “Gomer” sound like some modern-day nation? Why Turkey? If God wanted to identify Turkey 2600 years ago, then why didn’t He use some sound-alike word that would identify modern Turkey? The same is true of the other nations listed in Ezekiel.
There is no need to speculate beyond the historical boundaries of Ezekiel’s day to force the names of these ancient nations to find a place on a modern-day map and conform to today’s geo-political landscape. Iain Duguid’s comments are helpful in accounting for the historical realities of Ezekiel’s prophecy:
[Gog] is the commander-in-chief ([ chief prince]) of a coalition of forces gathered from the ends of the earth. He himself is from the land of Magog, and he rules over Meshech-Tubal. His allies include Persia, Cush, and Put (38:5), along with Gomer and Beth Togarmah (38:6). It is no coincidence that together these make up a total of seven nations, and it is significant that they are gathered from the uttermost parts of the known world to the prophet. Meshech-Tubal, Gomer, and Beth Togarmah come from the North, Put (Northwest Egypt) and Cush (southern Egypt) from the south and west, while Persia is to the east of Judah.[1]Ezekiel was given a revelation that was describing his world. You don’t have to be a biblical scholar to figure this out. The people making up these nations were alive and well and living in proximity to Israel in Ezekiel’s day. There is no question about this claim. There is no way to refute it. To maintain that the nations that attack Israel are nations in our day is not allowing the Bible to speak for itself. “To seek the fulfillment in the dark region of the end of the days,” Ernest Hengstenberg (1802–1868) writes, “is the less possible, because most of the nations named either no longer exist, or are no longer heathen. Magog, Gomer, Meshech and Tubal, Phut, Sheba, and Dedan, are no more to be found”[2] on any modern map.
If the battle described in Ezekiel 38–39 does not refer to modern-day nations that will attack Israel, then when and where in biblical history did this conflict take place? Instead of looking to the distant future or finding fulfillment in a historical setting outside the Bible where we are dependent on unreliable secular sources, James B. Jordan believes that “it is in [the book of] Esther that we see a conspiracy to plunder the Jews, which backfires with the result that the Jews plundered their enemies. This event is then ceremonially sealed with the institution of the annual Feast of Purim.”[3] Jordan continues by establishing the context for Ezekiel 38 and 39:
Ezekiel describes the attack of Gog, Prince of Magog, and his confederates. Ezekiel states that people from all over the world attack God’s people, who are pictured dwelling at peace in the land. God’s people will completely defeat them, however, and the spoils will be immense. The result is that all nations will see the victory, and “the house of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God from that day onward” (Ezek. 39:21–23). . . . Chronologically this all fits very nicely. The events of Esther took place during the reign of Darius, after the initial rebuilding of the Temple under Joshua [the High Priest] and Zerubbabel and shortly before rebuilding of the walls by Nehemiah. . . . Thus, the interpretive hypothesis I am suggesting (until someone shoots it down) is this: Ezekiel 34–37 describes the first return of the exiles under Zerubbabel, and implies the initial rebuilding of the physical Temple. Ezekiel 38–39 describes the attack of Gog (Haman) and his confederates against the Jews. Finally, Ezekiel 40–48 describes in figurative language the situation as a result of the work of Nehemiah.[4]Ezekiel 38:5–6 tells us that Israel’s enemies come from “Persia, Cush, and . . . from the remote parts of the north. . . ,” all within the boundaries of the Persian Empire of Esther’s day. From Esther we learn that the Persian Empire “extended from India to Cush, 127 provinces. . .” in all (Esther 8:9). Ethiopia (Cush) and Persia are listed in Esther 1:1 and 3 and are also found in Ezekiel 38:5. The other nations were in the geographical boundaries “from India to Ethiopia” in the “127 provinces” over which Ahasueras ruled (Esther 1:1). “In other words, the explicit idea that the Jews were attacked by people from all the provinces of Persia is in both passages,”[5] and the nations listed by Ezekiel were part of the Persian empire of his day. The parallels are unmistakable (There are many more parallels that can be found in my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future .) Even Ezekiel’s statement that the fulfillment of the prophecy takes place in a time when there are “unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11) is not an indication of a distant future fulfillment as Grant Jeffrey attempts to argue:
It is interesting to note that during the lifetime of Ezekiel and up until 1900, virtually all of the villages and cities in the Middle East had walls for defense. Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls. Yet, in our day, Israel is a “land of unwalled villages” for the simple reason that modern techniques of warfare (bombs and missiles) make city walls irrelevant for defense. This is one more indication that his prophecy refers to our modern generation.In Esther we learn that there were Jews who were living peacefully in “unwalled towns” (KJV) (9:19) when Haman conspired against them. Israel’s antagonists in Ezekiel are said to “go up against the land of unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11). The Hebrew word perazah is used in Esther 9:19 and Ezekiel 38:11. This fits the conditions of Esther’s day. Jeffrey is mistaken in his assertion that “Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls.” They seemed to be quite common outside the main cities. Moreover, his contention that Israel is currently “dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense” is patently untrue. Since 2006, the Israeli government has built more than 435 miles of walls in Israel.* * * * *
Ezekiel’s reference to “dwell safely” and “without walls . . . neither bars nor gates” refers precisely to Israel’s current military situation, where she is dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense and where her cities and villages have no walls or defensive bars. The prophet had never seen a city without walls, so he was astonished when he saw, in a vision, Israel dwelling in the future without walls. Ezekiel lived in a time when every city in the world used huge walls for military defense.[6]
There are many more parallels between Ezekiel 38–39 and Esther, Ezra, and Nehemiah. I had one emailer argue with me over the above summary interpretation. He fed me all the standard end-time arguments that are popular with interpretations of Ezekiel 38–39. When I told him to purchase my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future and offer a detailed response, he wrote the following: “I’m not buying prophecy books just now, but I will accept a complimentary copy for review.” This is a person who is not serious about Bible study. He’s afraid of what he will find. He wanted to know if I belonged to the “Allegorism school of interpretation” that dismisses a literal interpretation. As I show in my book, I am very literal. I don’t turn horses into “horsepower, bows and arrows into “launching pads” and “missiles,” or chariots into tanks. When the text says “to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods” (Ezek. 38:13), it means silver, gold, cattle, and goods (Ezra 1:4) and not natural gas, potash, or oil.
He and many others like him have adopted a system of interpretation that locks him into a theology of irrelevance. Here is his final comment to me: “Things are winding up very rapidly these days.” Yes they are. We are witnessing the end of humanism. Either get on board to make it happen through the preaching of the gospel, applying the Bible to every area of life, and building an alternative society when the inevitable collapse comes or get out of the way. There won’t be a “rapture” to rescue you. Deal with it.
Endnotes:
1. Iain M. Duguid, Ezekiel: The NIV Application Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1999), 448.
2. E. W. Hengstenberg, The Prophecies of the Prophet Ezekiel Elucidated, trans. A. C. Murphy and J. G. Murphy (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1869), 331.
3. James B. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History (Niceville, FL: Biblical Horizons, 1995), 5.
4. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
5. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
6. Grant R. Jeffrey, The Next World War: What Prophecy Reveals About Extreme Islam and the West (Colorado Springs, CO: WaterBrook Press, 2006), 143, 147–148.
Gary is a graduate of Western Michigan University (1973) and earned his M.Div. at Reformed Theological Seminary in 1979. In 2007, he earned his Ph.D. in Christian Intellectual History from Whitefield Theological Seminary. Author of countless essays, news articles, and more than 27 book titles, he also hosts The Gary DeMar Show, and History Unwrapped—both broadcasted and podcasted. Gary has lived in the Atlanta area since 1979 with his wife, Carol. They have two married sons and are enjoying being grandparents to their grandson. Gary and Carol are members of Midway Presbyterian Church (PCA).
Thank you! You found the exact passage I was thinking of, that I read last week.
I think we’re all on the same page here.
As Quix related, I’m too hard on myself sometimes... A little too worried about what others think as well at times! Both things I need to work on within myself - with God’s help! :)
Thank you so much for explaining exactly what I was trying to relate, and much better than I could. I certainly do pray for the Peace of Jerusalem, and for peace throughout the world, but I am very aware that there are signs we are seeing RIGHT NOW, at this very moment that we have been told about for thousands of years through scripture.
It IS very exciting in the way you expressed that we KNOW God is true to His Word, and He will triumph over all in the end. I’ve also personally had a feeling since I was a young child that I will be here on Earth to see at least some of these things come to pass. I just wish it didn’t have to be so... Obviously, we all wish it didn’t HAVE to be - but it will. At least those of us with our eyes on God can be comforted by the fact that His promise to us is everlasting.
Thanks again for your post! :)
NONSENSE.
NOT BY A LONG SHOT.
I normally do not post on “theology” threads because I try to limit my posts on FR to “political”. But I thought this was an interesting thread in light of current events. I will withhold my personal opinion unless asked for in PRIVATE, but a good read nonetheless..
David
“But how does he KNOW there won’t be a rapture?”
He doesn’t. Just who does he think will man the armies of good at the battle of Armageddon?? :)
I don’t when it will happen but the “rapture” will occur.
Those that deny it, well, they’ll be in for a big surprise and it certainly won’t be a secret!
Read 2 Peter 3 alongside of 1 Corinthians 3
The "Rapture" (and all forms of "Premillennialism") is destroyed by these Scriptures. Christ speaks of a 'final day'. He speaks of a single general judgment and resurrection. Acts tells us that the heavens must receive him until the restitution of ALL things. That's the New Heavens and the New Earth. The risen Christ is now "The Temple"; Christians are "the Temple of the Holy Spirit".
Some fascinating stuff!
Satan is not bound.
John 12:31 ...now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
Note that Jesus didn't say bound and thrown in a pit. Cast out means pushed outside.
If Satan is bound how can he continue to deceive people.
IICor.4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded,...
Eph.2:2...the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience
1Pet.5:8...your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion...
I think you see from these verses that Satan is still doing his best to destroy as many people as possible. I think he gives special attention to the Jews and Israel because if he can destroy them he may stop Jesus Christ from ushering in the millennium, since the Tribulation is all about opening the eyes and hearts of the Jews.
Augustinian Replacement Theology just happens to coincide with the emergence of a dominant state church. It certainly helps to support it's claims that it (the state church) has control over all things religious, since in this doctrine it is paving the way for Jesus Christ to return and set up the Kingdom of God. It's not surprising Chiliasm (the belief in a future millennium) was branded heretical. Just look at some of the anathema's from Trent, anything that doesn't work to enhancing the power or authority of the state church is always treated as error.
I've pinged some others I thought might have some interest.
What about the Thessalonians that thought they had missed the Rapture. They predate Augustinian Replacement Theology by about 300 yrs.
What about Chiliasm that predates the idea that a state church will pave the way for Jesus Christ to return.
From what I can tell dispensationalism is consistent with these earlier premillenial views.
Satan continues to tempt all men. Those who have not been redeemed by Christ; those who do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit will be deceived and succumb to Satan. Those who belong to Christ, those whose names were declared "God's family" from before the foundation of the world will NOT be deceived and succumb to Satan.
This idea that Satan is running around outside the perfect, ordained control of God is a hallmark of Arminians. However, Calvinists know that Satan, like all creatures, is a created being and as such, he carries out the will of God, one way or another.
Do you think Satan could tempt you away from Christ? Is that a real possibility, given John 6, 10, 12, etc.?
Sometimes it seems the Baptist's rightful loathing of a state church spills over into a distaste for a strong church against which the gates of hell will not prevail.
Don't be afraid of the real church. It is mighty and its head has already won the battle over death and sin. He has risen.
In the blink of an eye.
I'm not sure I know what one is, but I know Scripture makes so much more sense when you see that God is not done with Israel.
Thank you.
Those who have not been redeemed by Christ; those who do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit will be deceived and succumb to Satan. Those who belong to Christ, those whose names were declared "God's family" from before the foundation of the world will NOT be deceived and succumb to Satan.
I'm with you on this 100%. God will have all the people at the end He knew He would have from before the beginning.
This idea that Satan is running around outside the perfect, ordained control of God is a hallmark of Arminians.
It may be, but premillenialism does not mean God is not in control.
Do you think Satan could tempt you away from Christ? Is that a real possibility
It can't happen, but not because of me. Jesus Christ has me in his hand and nothing can take me out of it.
Sometimes it seems the Baptist's rightful loathing of a state church spills over into a distaste for a strong church against which the gates of hell will not prevail.
The only strong church that the gates of Hell can't prevail against is the body of Christ.
Politics perverting interpretation is what I loath. A state church doing this is to be expected.
Of course he is. Or you would succumb to him just like the non-believer down the street.
Christ has check-mated him.
"Get thee behind me, Satan."
Does he or not?
And the fact that Satan is bound does not mean Satan is dead.
It means Satan cannot have what he wants most — the lives and souls of Christ’s sheep.
What about the Thessalonians that thought they had missed the Rapture. They predate Augustinian Replacement Theology by about 300 yrs.What about Chiliasm that predates the idea that a state church will pave the way for Jesus Christ to return.
From what I can tell dispensationalism is consistent with these earlier premillenial views.
You strike me as someone who might actually read something. Could I suggest Regnum Caelorum: Patterns of Millennial Thought in Early Christianity.
The executive summary is, no, modern dispensationalism does not greatly resemble the eschatology of those early Christians who were chiliasts (and not all were).
Nope, not even close. He is not bound, but as a Christian he can only do to me what God allows and he can never cause me to lose my salvation.
Of course he is. Or you would succumb to him just like the non-believer down the street.
Now you're starting to sound like those free will Arminians. ;)
Satan is a roaring lion, the prince of the air, constantly seeking to deceive. Look at all the Mary apparitions that have people praying to her instead of Jesus. Satan is out and about.
I know you will argue your view to the end, but just look at Romans 11. Israel is only blinded until God has all of us He intends to have. IOW, God is not done with Israel. If this is true (and it is!) then the theological belief that Christians have assumed all the unfulfilled promises given to Israel is wrong.
The "Rapture" (and all forms of "Premillennialism") is destroyed by these Scriptures. Christ speaks of a 'final day'. He speaks of a single general judgment and resurrection. Acts tells us that the heavens must receive him until the restitution of ALL things. That's the New Heavens and the New Earth. The risen Christ is now "The Temple"; Christians are "the Temple of the Holy Spirit".
I will take that as a compliment and I will put it on the long list of books I'm working my way through. :)
Was that true before the crucifixion and resurrection? Or have things changed now that Christ has defeated Satan on the cross?
There is a difference between the nation of Israel and spiritual Israel. All men everywhere today are called to kneel to Christ alone. Nothing is postponed.
I don't think dispensationalists realize how much they devalue Christ's sacrifice, as if it wasn't finished. As if it didn't conquer death and sin.
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" -- Titus 2:11
None is without excuse. But by the grace of God all those who have been reborn in order to love His appearing have been snatched from Satan and stamped with His signet of adoption.
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