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The fight over Book of Mormon geography
Mormon Times ^ | May 27, 2010 | Michael DeGroote

Posted on 05/27/2010 6:44:33 AM PDT by Colofornian

The discussion on Book of Mormon geography was getting heated. Scholars gathered in Provo, Utah, to discuss their theories about where the events described in the Book of Mormon took place. Some placed the Nephite capital city Zarahemla in Mesoamerica, others in South America. Others argued for a setting in the American heartland.

The president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints attended the two-day Book of Mormon convention. Although he found the discussion interesting, he was obviously concerned that people were getting a little too worked up about their geographic theories. He decided to intervene.

The Book of Mormon geography conference was held at Brigham Young Academy on May 23-24, 1903. But the advice President Joseph F. Smith gave at that conference 107 years ago could apply equally to current disputes over Book of Mormon geography.

"President Smith spoke briefly," the Deseret News account summarized, "and expressed the idea that the question of the city (of Zarahemla) was one of interest certainly, but if it could not be located the matter was not of vital importance, and if there were differences of opinion on the question it would not affect the salvation of the people; and he advised against students considering it of such vital importance as the principles of the Gospel."

More recently, the Encyclopedia of Mormonism described how "Church leadership officially and consistently distances itself from issues regarding Book of Mormon geography."

But the lack of an official position hasn't squelched interest. The subject attracts highly trained archaeologists and scholars and informed — and not-so-informed — amateurs and enthusiasts. Books, lectures and even Book of Mormon lands tours abound.

But something is rotten in Zarahemla — wherever it may be.

In the middle of what could be a fun and intellectually exciting pursuit similar to archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann's famous search for the lost city of Troy, there are accusations of disloyalty tantamount to apostasy.

In one corner is the more-established idea of a Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon. This theory places the events of the book in a limited geographic setting that is about the same size as ancient Israel. The location is in southern Mexico and Guatemala. The person most often associated with this theory is John L. Sorenson, a retired professor of anthropology at BYU, and the author of "An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon" and a series of articles on Book of Mormon geography that ran in the Ensign magazine in September and October 1984. A new book, tentatively titled "Mormon's Codex," is in the process of being published.

In the other corner is the challenger, a new theory that places Book of Mormon events in a North American "heartland" setting. Like the Mesoamerican theory, it also is limited in area — but not quite as limited. Its symbolic head is Rod L. Meldrum and, more recently, Bruce H. Porter. Meldrum and Porter are the co-authors of the book "Prophecies and Promises," which promotes the heartland setting.

It wouldn't be hard to predict that some friction might come about from competing theories — that healthy sparring would occur with arguments and counter-arguments. But it has gone beyond that.

The source of the animosity comes from the heartland theory's mantra: "Joseph knew."

Joseph Smith made several statements that can be interpreted to have geographic implications. Proponents of a North American setting see these statements as authoritative and based in revelation. Mesoamerican theorists think that Joseph Smith's ideas about geography expanded over time and included approval of at least some connection to Central America.

To the heartlander, Joseph's knowledge about Book of Mormon locations is seen as proof of his divine calling and a testament to his being the chosen translator/expert of the book. Joseph didn't just know; he knew everything. This position, however, leaves little room for other opinions — or for charity.

"The way I look at Joseph Smith's statements is that he either knew or he didn't know. If he knew, he knew by revelation. And if he didn't know, you've got to ask yourself why he said the things that he said," Porter said. "If he didn't know, was he trying to show off? If he really didn't know, why was he telling people?

"My feeling is that Joseph Smith did not lie," Porter said.

If you don't agree with this line of reasoning, by implication, you think that Joseph lied.

"My authority is Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon," Porter said. "Most of your Mesoamerican theorists, their authority is John Sorenson and Matthew Roper. They picked those as their authority at the neglect of Joseph Smith."

Matthew P. Roper, a research scholar at the Neal A. Maxwell Institute Of Religious Scholarship, naturally doesn't like this characterization. "They seem to be trying to elevate a question of lesser importance, Book of Mormon geography, to the level of the doctrines of the church," Roper said. "And even though they give lip service to things like they know the church has not given an official position, they turn around and say, 'All these people are dismissing Joseph Smith.' "

It is somewhat ironic that believing that Joseph did not "know" also supports Joseph as a prophet. The more Joseph's assumptions about Book of Mormon geography prove to be wrong, the greater a testimony that he did not write the book himself. "We assume," Roper said, "that since Joseph Smith was the translator of the Book of Mormon, and that it was translated by the gift and power of God, that he would know everything about the book that an author would. I would submit that the two are not the same thing. I could translate the 'Wars of Caesar' and not know anything about ancient Gaul or the different tribes."

When Meldrum's theories first became popularized through firesides and a DVD he produced, the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (FAIR) took notice and responded with gusto.

"The way he said things, they attack that more than they attack the evidence that he presented," Porter said.

Scott Gordon, president of FAIR, would not disagree. "We view this as a steadying-of-the-ark issue. We really don't care where he picks for his theory on where the Book of Mormon can take place," Gordon said. "What we care about that he is implying that the church is not following the teachings of Joseph Smith. Which means the church leadership, the prophet — everything is not following. And we think that is a very, very dangerous position."

"They are getting really worried because they are seeing this is becoming a movement. That's their words," Meldrum said. "They are just saying it's a movement because they are getting a lot of flak from people who are seeing the DVD and the information and thinking, 'You know what, this makes a lot of sense.' "

But supporters also see the heartland theory as an inspired movement that will transform the LDS Church: "(V)ery few people out there fully grasp the magnitude of this movement and the powerful influence that it is having and the sweeping nature of its message," wrote one prominent supporter. "It will sweep the church and most LDS will not even understand what happened until it's past. … Time is our friend."

A movement — about geography?

Historian Ronald O. Barney has seen similar attitudes in some people supporting Mesoamerica. One person described a particular Mesoamerican book as "life-transforming" and that the book "changed the way I think about everything."

Life-transforming?

"People are hanging their faith on evidence of Book of Mormon peoples," Barney said.

"I just think that this way of thinking about our religion is such a waste of time," Barney said, "It almost suggests we don't trust the Holy Ghost. Not only are we worried that he won't reveal to people the truthfulness of the book, but we want to augment it — even if we have to bend and distort — so that there can be no mistake about its truthfulness."

Meldrum said he doesn't hang his testimony on the heartland theory.

"I don't know that this geography is true. I've said that many times and I want to make sure that that's clear. If President Monson was to tomorrow say, 'You know what? I've had a revelation and the Book of Mormon occurred in Indonesia,' you know what? I'm with him." Meldrum said with a laugh.

John L. Sorenson stands by the Mesoamerican theory, but also the Prophet.

"(Geography) wasn't very important to him and he didn't know much about it," Sorenson said. "Joseph knew what he knew — and what he knew was far more important than geography."

Joseph's nephew, President Joseph F. Smith, would probably agree.


TOPICS: History; Other Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: beck; bookofmormon; geography; glennbeck; inman; lds; mormon
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To: svcw

In Judaism, that’s factually incorrect.


381 posted on 05/28/2010 1:19:20 PM PDT by magritte ("There are moments, Jeeves, when one asks oneself "Do trousers matter?")
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To: donozark

Ok, D. If it makes you feel better to “feel” this is an apology, I’ll accept that.


382 posted on 05/28/2010 1:38:40 PM PDT by svcw (Habakkuk 2:3)
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To: svcw

My “feelings” have nothing to do with it. Little matters what I think.
It’s an apology. Period. As I said 373 posts ago...


383 posted on 05/28/2010 1:40:17 PM PDT by donozark (Hard to pull chicken teeth...)
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To: donozark

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints issued a long- awaited apology Tuesday for the massacre of an immigrant wagon train by local church members 150 years ago in Southwestern Utah.”

Deseret News. Sept.12, 2007.
________________________________________________

Thats the spin from the mormon owned and content controlled newspaper...

But where are the actual words that were spoken ???

What did Hinckley have to say about it ???

Why was it “a long- awaited apology”

That makes it sound just what it really was

a 2007 version of the 1890 polygamy “proclamation” that meant nothing and was issued by a liar who never obeyed his own “proclamation”

and a 2007 version of the 1978 change in pracice but not doctrine that allowed black (men onkly) to be priests...and there still after all these decades any blacks in the 70, 12, 1st presidency or as the profit...

and still not ONE black woman priest after 32 years...

so here we have more phony baloney lipservice ...

There was no apology ever given for the Mountain Meadows Massacre in which 140 unarmed men, women children and tiny baqbes-in-arms were treachously murdered by faithful mormons at the direct orders of the criminal Briggy Young,

and no perpertrator was ever brought to justice except for the one old scapegoat, John E Lee who was just following orders...

and why have the miserable dishonorable and ghoulish mormons continued to control and descecrate the very cemetery and land that their victims died on after denying them a decent burial for 2 years after the murders, and wont allow the surviving families to erect their own monument or own and care for the area, ???

and why wont the mormons allow the bones to be exhumed and examined to determine who they are and how they died ???

Thats not the normal behavior of apologetic people but rather the stealth and guilt of people with something to hide...

Apologigies inslude openness and honesty...the continual lies of the mormon corporation is outrageous and inhumane and indecent...

Right now the Islamics own the land in NTC and are building their own mosque on the spot where 300 were murdered by their religious cohorts ...

This travesty in Utah equals that callousness and evil...Plus both acts of tyrany and terrorism were perpetrated on 9/11...


384 posted on 05/28/2010 1:42:50 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: count-your-change

2 Kings 6

Famine in Besieged Samaria
24 Some time later, Ben-Hadad king of Aram mobilized his entire army and marched up and laid siege to Samaria. 25 There was a great famine in the city; the siege lasted so long that a donkey’s head sold for eighty shekels [a] of silver, and a quarter of a cab [b] of seed pods [c] for five shekels. [d]
26 As the king of Israel was passing by on the wall, a woman cried to him, “Help me, my lord the king!”

27 The king replied, “If the LORD does not help you, where can I get help for you? From the threshing floor? From the winepress?” 28 Then he asked her, “What’s the matter?”
She answered, “This woman said to me, ‘Give up your son so we may eat him today, and tomorrow we’ll eat my son.’ 29 So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, ‘Give up your son so we may eat him,’ but she had hidden him.”


385 posted on 05/28/2010 1:45:20 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...))
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To: donozark

Make that 3,000

Right now the Islamics own the land in NTC and are building their own mosque on the spot where 3,000 were murdered by their religious cohorts ...

This travesty in Utah equals that callousness and evil...Plus both acts of tyrany and terrorism were perpetrated on 9/11...


386 posted on 05/28/2010 1:45:42 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

Ooooops!


387 posted on 05/28/2010 1:47:19 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...))
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To: donozark

.-)


388 posted on 05/28/2010 1:47:42 PM PDT by svcw (Habakkuk 2:3)
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To: donozark
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints issued a long- awaited apology Tuesday for the massacre of an immigrant wagon train by local church members 150 years ago in Southwestern Utah.”

"We are TRULY sorry that we didn't charge MORE of them; but they said they would 'TALK" if we did."

389 posted on 05/28/2010 1:50:18 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...))
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To: donozark

Most would at least acknowledge this as an apology.
__________________________________________________

I’m sure most mormon would sustain that as an apology if they were told to...

But I’m not a brainwashed abused mormon...

I’m a free Christian and I think for myself, and i am not under cultish orders not to read the accounts for myself...

There was no apology and there never has been...

The mormons just laugh and mock the families of their victims just as Briggy Young laughed and mocked and tore down the first monument that the US Army had erected over the victims naked animal gnawed bodies...


390 posted on 05/28/2010 1:54:03 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

The apology WAS made. Apparently it is insufficient for you and others to accept. Fine. But that does not negate the fact it WAS made. Period.
Most reasonable people would simply state an apology was made, but they don’t accept it or it is insufficient. Fine.
Have we reached sunlight after nearly 400 posts?


391 posted on 05/28/2010 1:54:49 PM PDT by donozark (Hard to pull chicken teeth...)
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To: donozark

Apparently it is insufficient for you and others to accept
_____________________________________________

Give up the land or at least sell it for a fair price as a token of sincerity and then we’ll talk...


392 posted on 05/28/2010 1:58:21 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

Why on earth would you possibly post that to ME? Do you seriously think I have any control over this parcel of land in UTAH?


393 posted on 05/28/2010 2:00:19 PM PDT by donozark (Hard to pull chicken teeth...)
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To: Elsie

Thanks, that didn’t immediately come to mind with your previous. But I’m still not coming to your house for dinner!


394 posted on 05/28/2010 2:42:22 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: donozark

I have decided to repost to you the article we have been talking about. Notice that the word “apology” appears in the headline and first sentence.
Trying to be objective do you really consider this to be an apology?
I am hoping this helps you out.
There is also a second link about the same issue.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695209359,00.html
http://www.sunstonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/147-74-79.pdf


395 posted on 05/28/2010 2:57:36 PM PDT by svcw (Habakkuk 2:3)
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To: svcw

Talk about beating a dead horse! It doesn’t matter what EYE think!
And it isn’t I in need of help...


396 posted on 05/28/2010 3:01:00 PM PDT by donozark (RESTRAINING ORDERS ARE JUST ANOTHER WAY OF SAYING I LOVE YOU)
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To: donozark

And you have made my point. Thanks.


397 posted on 05/28/2010 3:04:58 PM PDT by svcw (Habakkuk 2:3)
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To: svcw

After 400 posts, nearly, please tell us all what your “point” was?


398 posted on 05/28/2010 3:10:07 PM PDT by donozark (RESTRAINING ORDERS ARE JUST ANOTHER WAY OF SAYING I LOVE YOU)
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To: donozark; svcw

I am just guessing here but svcw doesn’t think there was an apology and for some reason you think there was.
I think he made it clearer than the so called “apology”.


399 posted on 05/28/2010 3:25:49 PM PDT by roylene (Don't believe everything you think!)
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To: roylene

,-)


400 posted on 05/28/2010 3:31:32 PM PDT by svcw (Habakkuk 2:3)
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