all are invited...
What they are refering to is often called “once saved always saved”. The idea behind that is once you are born again, spiritually reborn, any sin you commit is forgiven by the Blood of Christ, by grace. You do not have to ‘work it off’ or you do not ‘lose your salvation’.
Even if you ‘backslide’ (say fornication for example), it doesn’t mean you lose your salvation, but it also does not mean you are walking with the Lord (showing proper love and respect for Him and His sacrifice) and it does not mean that you do not need to repent from your sin. Grace does not give you a license to sin. To say that it does, spits on Christ.
There is some debate about those who completely turn their back on God and Christ and deny Him after truly being born again. While this is rare, it does happen. More often, however, true believers may remain backslidden for a long period of time and still not lose their salvation. Some were never really Born Again to begin with, God knows who they are. But just because you sin doesn’t automatically mean that you were never born again. We ALL WILL SIN CONSTANTLY, it is human nature.
However, IMO - and there is some scriptural evidence for it - we can blaspehme the Holy Ghost and possibly lose our salvation. But this is VERY VERY VERY hard to do to the point most Christians do not worry about it, I have no fear of it. Christ has changed my heart, my soul, washed me clean in ways I cannot express and I could no more deny Him than I could deny the Sun in the sky.
But for the vast, vast majority of Christians, we see that we are secure in Christ, that no outside forces or sin can separate us from Christ or His love. Nothing we really do, will make Him no longer love us, or make us no longer His children. Once adopted always adopted.
God knows how and when we are going to sin long before we were ever born. And Christ died for us anyway, knowing and paying for our sins on the Cross.
True born again Christians have a deep love and gratitude for the Sacrifice for all our sins and do not wish to grieve him. We know when we sin we grieve him. We are not ‘earning’ contributing or anything else to our salvation, “it is finished”, salvation is here and it is free.
What we are doing is growing in our love and walk with Christ, WE don’t do anything, He does it all. “Once saved, always saved” is a great security for believers because we know we WILL sin (whether we want to or not - we will) but we will not be condemned or lose our salvation for sinning against God. When God looks at us He sees the righteousness of Christ, not our sins OR ‘good works’. He only sees if we are covered in the Blood of Christ shed on the Cross.
God invites us to His mansion, rent free, debt free and gives us riches beyond belief and heals us. All we have to do is trust Him. Would you spit on your host? Would you trash his stuff? No, you would be grateful and thankful even though it will not change your situation or position or get you anything more. God will not ‘kick you out’.
The author doesn’t understand “once saved always saved” anymore than Mormons do.
Gee, why am I not surprised you posted this, resty. You really are our best player.
the Religion of the anit LDS)
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That is an OUTRIGHT LIE, Resty.
My faith is in Christ alone, not religion or any particular doctrine.
Also, once saved always saved is NOT a ‘salvific doctrine’ nor is it even a ‘religion’.
Are you sure you are not really an Anti-Mormon yourself?
Not what Catholics believe.
“I have found that the main thing that keeps me in-line is the fear of God.”
This statement of yours gives me concern. I will say in honesty that the main thing that keeps me in-line is the love of God. I am so grateful for His mercy and salvation.
“For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.” 2 Timothy 1:7
We are at times admonished to fear God; but still more to love God. What is the first and greatest commandment? To love the LORD our God with all our heart.
It is love that was God’s motivation to give His son, love for His people that drove Jesus to the cross; love, not fear.
“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1st John 4:19
” If I cannot lose salvation:
1) Why should I ask forgiveness? 2) Why should I repent? 3) Why should I do any works for the kingdom of God? “
Because you love God. Because He has instructed you to, and you trust Him. Because faith without works is dead.
What happens to the christian is not what is important here.
It is what happens to those who are still lost that is important.
From God’s perspective, who do you think God considers to be the more righteous according to their own works (good or bad)???... the one who is still lost? or the born again Christian?
As one who believes OSAS, I can tell you that I seriously doubt there is a single born again Christian who ever lived that didn’t ever wrestle with this issue. I say that because as one who firmly does believe OSAS, the fear that I may be wrong about the issue scares the hell out of me, as it should... but no-osas would scare me even more.
Why? because God makes it clear in His word that his standard is perfection... and nobody can be perfect.
Lost sinners understand this... and they see Christians parading themselves around as if they no longer sin, and they see hypocrisy.... and they are right.
From God’s perspective, even the thought or desire of a discretion makes you just as guilty as committing it.
As a born again osas Christian, I can say that I have NEVER met a christian who shares my view on this subject who sees it as a free ride ticket. Such a person in my own opinion must not even know Jesus to be able to spit in His face like that. No... osas Christians carry just as much “Fear of the Lord” as any other Christian... that is unless the Holy Spirit is not in them. (not saved in the first place)
If a born again Christian can lose his/her salvation, then the promise or gift of salvation never existed in the first place. How could it? Is it Christ’s work in us??? or is it Our work for Christ??? You cannot mix the two.
Christ’s work in us is our salvation and His PURCHASE of us. As Christians, we are no longer our own. We belong to Him. We are His possession... and NOBODY steals God’s possessions... even us. Sure we still have free will to sin, but doing so does not help us in our work in Christ which is to spread His message and His love. And when we go as far to “backslide”, well, there’s a penalty to pay... but that penalty has nothing to do with robbing God of His possession.
Go ahead... look through the bible... find for me one circumstance or example where God warns that sin itself will be the cause for eternal damnation. I’m not talking about generalizations... “those who practice”. I’m talking about specific examples where a particular backsliding Christian was told by Jesus or an apostle that their salvation status had been forfeited by their own behavior.
What you will find however, are tons and tons of examples where a particular individual’s sins resulted in illness... or affliction... or even physical death.
If as a Christian you can honestly proclaim that not a single person gets into heaven by his own good works, then how can we say that anyone gets to hell by their own bad ones? Did Jesus pay for the sins of ALL mankind? or just the ones who would seek forgiveness? Is salvation a gift? or is it a contract? Are the people in hell there because they sinned? or because they rejected God?
And, if we can honestly say that holiness living protects us from “backsliding”, and thus saves us from hell, then is this not the same as saying our good works (holiness) gets us to heaven???
Yeah... you had some good questions... very common ones.
There are answers.
But fear will block your understanding of them.
Losing the fear of God;
I have found that the main thing that keeps me in-line is the fear of God. It keeps what I say and do in check. Problem is, what fear can you have when you cannot lose the ultimate goal as to why anyone would become a Christian?
For if you cannot lose salvation;
then none of the above even applies. Why would God tell us to do something but then turn around and make it sound like none of it has to be done?
It's like saying: You can drive the car all you want, but never put gas in it. Why? Because it's not needed. So why fear God enough to do what He has told us if we are not even going to be judged, or punished for not doing it.
Does God speak worthless words? Is God's book a worthless book? If osas is believed, then 90% of God's word would have to be omitted to make it work. Because all punishment for sin has to be omitted.
Since you've spent so much time investigating the issue, I'm sure you've come across the correct answers to your questions, but you chose not to believe them...
Those of us who know we have eternal salvation can answer your questions but apparently not to your satisfaction...Most folks in the flesh just can't seem to understand that there is NOTHING they can do to earn or merit God's promised salvation...
Apparently also you seem to think that when you or I sin against God, and we do, that we must fear being kicked out of the family...You don't seem to understand that we don't fear being kicked out, but we have remorse...We have sinned against God...
But then you might ask, why do we feel remorse instead of fear...
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Jesus Christ lives in us, and we in Him...
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
And what of those who backslide or turn away from God??? Did the Prodigal son lose his salvation??? NOPE...
Might we die??? Yes...
Might we get ill??? Yes...
Might God turn our flesh over to Satan for it's (the flesh, not the soul) destruction??? Yes...
Might we fall from Grace??? Yes...
And will God discipline us??? Most certainly...
Will our Father disown us and kick us out of the family; un-adopt us??? Certainly NOT...
This is the spirit of slavery....., to make “fearing God” something that “keeps you in line.” It is the law. It is the unregenerate man in the only way he knows how to approach God. It is uncertainty and doubt and while it may appear reverent, it is ultimately a fan of hatred toward God, if we actually pay attention to what He truly commands, and not restrict ourselves to surface, external commands.
Your problem, in defining “obedience” to God, is that you set the standard too low. In doing so, you argue with Jesus, who set the bar impossibly high. Do you serve God PERFECTLY in all you do and say? Is your every thought filled with rejoicing over His good providence? Do you trust Him perfectly in all that He ordains. Do you NEVER fail to trust Him, trusting Him to provide for you perfectly according to His will? When His will strips you of some earthly bauble, do you happily give it up, knowing that it is for your good and His glory? Are you so severe with sin that you rip out things as precious to you as your eye, cut them off though they were as essential as your hand? Do you treat your fellow creatures with the same type of respect, never denigrating them, never defrauding them, never doing anything but loving them perfectly, even when they don’t do that to you? THAT (and much more) is the standard.
The ONLY way a man can claim to have lived in a way so as not to sin his way out of relationship with God is to re-define sin to some pathetic set of commands (hello, sir, I think this is called “Pharisaism”). It is an assault on the commands of God no less than an man who spills the blood of another man in anger, or blasphemes.
Your problem is that you don’t see yourself in the awful need of Christ for a total cleansing from the inside out, rather than just dusting you off, forgiving a few external nik-naks and keeping you a “good person.” This is only possible if you have a man-centered view of sin, and thus a man-centered view of God.
There are only two possibilities for men who come face to face with the true demands of God’s holiness. ONE, we can fall at his feet as ruined cosmic rebels, without ANY hope save in the mercy of Christ, and trust in a righteousness that is given freely, maintained freely and to which we cannot add anything, ever, or TWO we can turn away from God. That turning away from the true God may consist in a) building a false God and a false set of standards for righteousness so that we may remain religious and yet keep our sense of self-effort, or b) we may lapse into open rebellion.
The interesting thing is that when Jesus came, he found the religious community a) doing what they always do, which is feeling quite good about their supposed “obedience” and feeling superior to the b) crowd. He did the unthinkable, though, and told the religious moralists they were EVERY BIT as much in rebellion as the irreligious. They had also rejected the true God and manufactured one who was “pleased” with them.
This system of self-righteousness is at the core of your objection to sovereign grace from first to last. You are trying to save yourself. It cannot be done
Um, no. No I won't.
I'll keep my underwear on, thank you.
Besides, "Once Naked, Always Naked" spells out O.N.A.N. and that would be kinda gay to do with the author. I'll pass.
Oh, and what is an anit LDS? :-)
Belief in once saved, always saved is irrelevant to one’s salvation.
Salvation is in Christ, not whether you think it can be gained and lost or is permanent. That’s for God to sort out.
It’s a good thing that Mormons don’t have different cults with conflicting beliefs, isn’t it?
Ooops.... LDS, FLDS, AUB, Blackmore/Bountiful Community, Latter Day Church of Christ (Kingston clan), Righteous Branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days, Centennial Park group, Nielsen / Naylor Group,Independent Mormon fundamentalists
Which one of them is right, I wonder???????
I think most Christians are OSAS, because that is how they live out their lives, on the other hand ....
Hebrews 6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
There are plenty of people who oppose the LDS and its odd teachings and who do NOT believe in OSAS.
A few quick points for now and I'll get back to this later:
First, the doctrine of perseverance of the saints is not held by all Christians. It is not considered to be a doctrine critical to salvation. Whether a person believes an Arminian view opposed to perseverance or a Calvinistic view supporting perseverance, it secondary to the understanding of Christ's atoning blood.
Second, while I'm sure that some misguided people believe that muttering a few magic words and then continuing to live in sin is sufficient for a get-out-of-jail-free card, no mainstream Christian group that I'm aware of teaches such a thing. I have worshipped for years in reformed churches who hold to perseverance of the saints and I don't observe any casualness about following God's law. Just the opposite in fact as sometimes they seem too legalistic, IMO. When a person really understands that salvation through grace by faith alone is a gift, the gratefulness to our Lord is exhibited by a desire to please him. Not based on fear but a desire to please.
Third, Christians universally reject this "license to sin" that you suggest is an outcome of perseverance of the saints. Christians are aware of Paul's condemnation of that "logic" (Romans 6:1-4).
Fourth, Christians can make an imperfect judgment about the spiritual state of person because the Apostle John has given us the insight to do so:
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:19)
The religion of the “anti-lds” is called Christianity.
Look it up on Google.