The 15 Marks of The Church

Aggie Catholics ^ | 5/13/2010

[MarkBsnr]

You’re making a big deal out of my proper use of “diminish”? It’s simply the antonym of “magnify,” a word found among other places in Psalm 34:3: “Oh, magnify the LORD with me,and let us exalt his name together.” No need to ridicule me for using the word, correctly.

Diminish has several meanings. You select a non Biblical term, determine the meaning and get all upset when you get called on it?

Let's see you explain Scripturally this whole business of 'relationship with Jesus'. God is the Creator. We are the Created. God is further above us than we are above viruses. What kind of relationship can a virus have a human? We worship God, we don't crack tubes of ale and kick back on sunny Saturday afternoons.

You’re calling me a “subordinationist”? What are you talking about?

Anyone who thinks that Jesus answers to the Father in a subordinate fashion.

And you’re calling me “subordinationist” because I recount a clearly biblically defensible doctrine?

Every major and most minor heresies came out of the Bible. That is the role of the Church - to teach proper doctrine and to reject heresy.

I’m not sure what you mean by “binarist.” And, no, I’m not LDS — I’m a Christ-follower who trusts that God has revealed Himself through Scripture.

So are the LDS. Binarists believe in the Father and Son, with the Holy Spirit as a mechanism sent by one or both of the Father and Son.

I honestly do not understand your antagonism toward me, MarkBsnr. I want to promote Christ and you lash out at me in every way you can think. I support what I say with Scripture, and you simply attack me. Why such antagonism, MarkBsnr?

You post very little Scripture and do much attacking, if you read your posts. And please get off this Roman thing that you have. Read up on Church history and you'll see what actually went on. Attacking the Church of Christ Jesus frequently attracts its supporters who will oppose those attacks. The gates of hell, doncha know...

[Alamo-Girl]

Let's see you explain Scripturally this whole business of 'relationship with Jesus'. God is the Creator. We are the Created. God is further above us than we are above viruses. What kind of relationship can a virus have a human?

For the discussion, to help get you started on the challenge, dear Theo.

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? - I Corinthians 6:19

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Colossians 3:3

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. - John 3:5-8

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. – I Cor 12:3

Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. - Matthew 22:42

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. - Matthew 16:15

God's Name is I AM.

[MarkBsnr]

Tell me, you who make much of your faith: How does that comment honor Christ?

God made women beautiful. And men utilitarian. Appreciating God's beauty in Creation is wrong? I have news for you. It's only the Muslims and their idiot relatives, the Puritans, that think this way. There are two points of view about women's beauty. Which school do you belong to?

[Theo]

Not all beautiful things are meant to be enjoyed by all people. Sexual intercourse is beautiful. But it is sacred, and only to be enjoyed within certain contexts.

How dare you post that image to me, encouraging me to lust after these women. You have no heart — a tragedy for someone who claims to follow Christ.

[Theo]

You are in for a surprise: Jesus was incarnated precisely so that we might enjoy relationship with God. That’s good news! Indeed, that is the Good News.

And yes, Jesus’ friends did enjoy meals with Him. Something I’ll enjoy with Him some day.

Yes, the Son submits to the Father. Recall what Jesus said to His Father prior to His crucifixion: “Not my will but yours be done” (see Matthew 26 and Luke 22). That is submission to the Father’s will.

No, the LDS don’t look to Scripture. They look to the Book of Mormon and other writings, claiming that the Scriptures have become perverted over time.

I’m not a “binarist” — I affirm that the Godhead consists of three Persons in communion: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

You are a puzzle. You post immodest photos and attack me for holding biblically defensible doctrines. You find hope in the Roman Catholic Church, and live a life devoid of the Fruit of the Spirit. I find home in Christ, my Savior, my Lord.

[MarkBsnr]

You are in for a surprise: Jesus was incarnated precisely so that we might enjoy relationship with God. That’s good news! Indeed, that is the Good News.

I asked you before for chapter and verse. Are you unable to provide it and will admit that this is your own doctrine, and not that of Jesus?

And yes, Jesus’ friends did enjoy meals with Him. Something I’ll enjoy with Him some day.

You sound pretty sure. Did you get your invite in the mail today? Be sure to RSVP, though.

Yes, the Son submits to the Father. Recall what Jesus said to His Father prior to His crucifixion: “Not my will but yours be done” (see Matthew 26 and Luke 22). That is submission to the Father’s will.

Yes, subordinationism. Why fight it when you post support for it?

No, the LDS don’t look to Scripture. They look to the Book of Mormon and other writings, claiming that the Scriptures have become perverted over time.

Given the way that so many people interpret them for themselves in novel ways, I'd put my money on those so-called Christians becoming perverted.

I’m not a “binarist” — I affirm that the Godhead consists of three Persons in communion: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Okay, you got that out of a book. Now, what does it mean to you?

You are a puzzle.

Calling me names? I could call you an idiot, but I'm not.

You post immodest photos

Who says that they are immodest? You? Under what authority? The RM may decide that they are not suitable for the RF, but under whose authority do you call them immodest?

attack me for holding biblically defensible doctrines

Let's see. Which heresies can be defended strictly from the pages of the Bible? Arianism, Docetism, Donatism, Monarchianism, Monophysitism, Monothelitism, Montanism, Nestorianism, and of course, a bunch of different versions of Gnosticism. Without the Church and the Creeds, there is only the chaos of, for example, the ruins of the Reformation, and the rubble of the Restoration.

You find hope in the Roman Catholic Church, and live a life devoid of the Fruit of the Spirit.

I am a Catholic and follow Christ. How do you know what my life is devoid of?

I find home in Christ, my Savior, my Lord.

I cannot find in any of your posts understanding of Christ at all, except in a binarist / subordinationist fashion.

[Theo]

A serious inquiry: Do any Roman Catholics reading this thread support what MarkBsnr has been writing against me? Could one of you step in and say something to your fellow Roman Catholic?

It’s clear that I’m unable to address MarkBsnr’s attacks and vulgarity. But perhaps someone who shares his religious tradition will be better received.

[MarkBsnr]

Appreciate the help, A-G.

Do you think that this is enough to start with?

[getoffmylawn]

I’m not Roman Catholic. I’m Serbian Orthodox, but I can say I do agree with MarkBsnr’s postings to you - especially contestant number 5 in post 66.

[Theo]

Unbelievable. Where is the desire to honor Christ? Where is the orthopraxy? It’s as though your religion is an important point to argue, but honoring Christ in your thoughts and behaviors is irrelevant.

Do you really agree with MarkBsnr that the Christian faith is not about relationship with God? It’s ALL about relationship with God: reconciliation, prayer, devotion, adoration, communion ...

Unbelievable. If this is representative of the Roman Catholic (or Serbian Orthodox) faith, then ... no thanks. I prefer communion with God over whatever it is you’ve got.

[Theo]

I honestly don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. Are you saying that it’s not possible to enjoy communion with the creator? I honestly don’t understand how any Christian would deny that we were created to enjoy fellowship with our Creator.

I do need to ask: Do you affirm MarkBsnr’s nasty comments about me, and his posting of immodest women?

[Alamo-Girl]

You're quite welcome, dear brother in Christ! And I do hope it is a good start.

[Alamo-Girl]

I hoped to give you a start in answering the challenge to "explain Scripturally this whole business of 'relationship with Jesus'."

Here is another:

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:1-5

Christ Jesus is our Life. We abide in Him and He abides in us. Without Him, we can do nothing.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4

That is not a here v. there relationship. He indwells us.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

Notice also how the above verse affirms the Trinity - the Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ.

Again,

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? - I Corinthians 6:19

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Colossians 3:3

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

[Theo]

Alamo-Girl — I still don’t understand the relevance of those passages of Scripture to the point at hand. You seem to be affirming that we can have relationship with God, but MarkBsnr is saying that we cannot.

Indeed, MarkBsnr has scoffed at the very idea that we can have a relationship with the Creator. Yes, He is awesome, and beyond our understanding. But all of Scripture and history is about God’s loving relationship with His creation, which culminates in the most beautiful relationship imaginable: a Bridegroom with His bride.

MarkBsnr has asked for chapter and verse, a potentially dangerous practice which can lend itself to prooftexting. That said, here’s my chapter and verse; this is Jesus speaking:

John 15:15 — “No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.”

Yes, we can have a relationship — even a **friendship** — with the One who brought about all of creation.

And a bonus for MarkBsnr — Jesus reveals his submissive relationship with His Father in the final phrase.

[Alamo-Girl]

It was not my intent to pick sides between my two brothers in Christ, but rather to bring to the table Scriptures which illuminate the relationship that we Christians have with Christ in the here-and-now.

And I disagree with you that quoting Scripture chapter and verse is a "potentially dangerous practice." Jesus often said, "it is written" quoting verses out of both the Law and the Prophets.

If I have misquoted something - or pulled it out of context in your view - then please let me know.

[Theo]

In addition to scoffing at the concept that we can be in relationship with the Creator, MarkBsnr scoffs at the concept that we can be assured of our salvation. Since he seems to respect Scripture, I provide the following passage, from Hebrews 10:19-23:

“Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.”

That is all about hope, all about confidence in the efficacy of Christ’s sacrifice, all about assurance of faith. Other passages affirm that we can be confident in the Lord’s salvation: See 1 Thessalonians 4: 13ff, for example.

A-G — do you still affirm MarkBsnr’s rejection of relationship with Christ and rejection of assurance of salvation?

[Theo]

Some people can pick a verse out of context, and develop an entire doctrine on it. That is potentially dangerous. It's better to know Scripture, in context, rather than just copy-paste a verse from some online Bible to support a preconceived notion one might have. That's called "prooftexting," and it's understood to be a dangerous practice.

I wasn't trying to get you to pick sides. Mark has just been acting antagonistically toward me, and I figured someone else may be able to get through to him. God affirms mediation and peace-making; I figured maybe someone would take up that mantle ...

[Alamo-Girl]

I am not affirming either of you. I'm providing Scriptures for the discussion.

Concerning our blessed assurance:

Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name. - Psalms 91:14

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. – Romans 8:38-39

And what more assurance could a person seek than this:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. – John 5:24

Again,

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. - Galatians 2:20

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

[Alamo-Girl]

The great privilege that I have being an adopted child of God is to repeat His words.

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. – I Peter 1:10-12

His words are spirit and life. The words of men are neither spirit nor life.

For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. - Hebrews 4:12

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

Indeed, the trouble comes in when we add to, alter or take away from the words of God.

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. - Deut 4:2

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. - Mark 7:7

God's Name is I AM.