Posted on 05/01/2010 8:33:45 AM PDT by GonzoII
1. Starting with the First Vision, Mormonism teaches that all churches except the Mormon Church are an abomination in the sight of God. "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join" (Joseph Smith History, 1:18-20)
"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw• near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” He again forbade me to join with any of them;..."
2. The Doctine and Covenants also has Jesus Christ condemning ALL other churches, and especially the "great and abominable church". "And the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire, according as it is spoken by the mouth of Ezekiel the prophet, who spoke of these things, which have not come to pass but surely must, as I live, for abominations shall not reign" (D&C 29:21).
3. The Church has a history of identifying the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church.
"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one' (Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811).
"Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God." - Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939
"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon! (Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255)
"A great portion of the oriental country has been preserved from the grossest idolatry, wickedness, confusion, bloodshed, murders, cruelty, and errors in religion that have overspread the rest of the world, under the name of Christianity, or mystery of iniquity. An open defiance of God is no mystery; open drunkenness, and revelling debauchery, and all manner of wickedness and immorality professed by sinners who profess to be nothing else, are no mystery; they do not deceive anybody; but when all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names."
"Many that were honest have been deceived by this mystery of iniquity, who have esteemed things to be sacred, which were abominably corrupt; and corrupt superstitions have been revered because of the great names and sanctified professions that were attached to them. If such institutions actually professed wickedness, they would go for what they were worth; but when a thing professes to be holy, and takes the name of Christ as its founder, and the holy Prophets and Apostles, to carry out all manner of oppression, all manner of idolatry and idol worship, all manner of priestcraft and kingcraft, and more or less instigating division among nations and governments, all to carry out bloodshed, cruelty, the rack, the inquisition, and holding of men in bondage, ruling them with a red of iron, it is a mystery of iniquity calculated to deceive millions."
"But returning to the general corruption that has prevailed nationally, politically, and religiously, under the name of Christianity, leaving out Christ and his Apostles, I do think there has been no idolatry in the world, under any form or system, that could surpass it. It is the mystery of iniquity, the great whore of all the earth. It has brought the whole earth under a lasting curse, having departed from the laws of God, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, in consequence of which the earth is destined to be burned, and few men left" (Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.41)
"How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations."
"She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, "The whore of all the earth," making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches... But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain" (Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p.346).
"Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called "Babylon the Great"—"The whore of all the earth," with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries. The learned—the great—the mighty—the kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms" (Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109).
"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven" ((Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85).
The Evangelization Station P.O. Box 267 Angels Camp, California, 95222, USA Telephone: 209-728-5598 E-mail: evangelization@earthlink.net www.evangelizationstation.com Pamphlet 360
" 18. As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. "
Matthew is righting years after the facts he is relating. And one of the facts is that Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter. In the above verse Matthew is simply relating to his audience that this is the Simon who had his name changed to Peter.
God bless.
righting = writing
Jn 1: 42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter.
Yes; he is.
And one of the facts is that Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter.
The 'fact' is that He did not.
"The 'fact' is that He did not."
Jn 1: 42
And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter.
There is no change there!
Jesus merely said that he WOULD be called by the other name.
The TEXT is plain as day.
The problem with the historical argument is that in the N.T., you cannot even be a church member if you live in unrepentant, willful sin, which so many popes did, let alone be a pastor. Thus these cannot qualify as successors to Peter, nor is an office filled based upon genealogical pedigree. I addition, the utter lack of any plans or procedure for selecting a future new pope, and perpetuating his office, like as was carefully provided for replacing Judas, is most conspicuous, as major doctrines need such. But what we are given are the qualification for bishops/elders (same office).
As for Mt. 16, see a prior past, and i can gt back to that later if need be.
You are still resorting to broad brushing Prots as including all who are not part of Rome, which is neither accurate or proper to my replies.
As for Catholicism being unchanged, and the same in 325 A.D. as 2010, that is what is a dream world. Many key doctrines did not even promulgated till much later, nor was the “unanimous consent of the father” which Trent misleading used, often even close to being unanimous. You did not even have such as concerned the canon, or a infallibly defined one until after the Reformation. As for recent history, i respect the sedevacantists here: http://www.catholictreasures.com/articles/25errors.html
First, Peter "rock" was never used as a proper name in the ancient world.
Second, what would Jesus' motive be to say that Simon should now go by his "second" name, Peter? Can you provide one?
Third, why was Peter still refered to as Simon after Christ said he would be called Peter?
Well, let me see some verses.
Which first 200 popes, who were killed, lived in unrepented sin?
Why were the authorities so bent on killing the "non-leaders" of the Catholic Church?
200 = ca. 20
There you go again!
You got hold of this gnat and won't let go!
I provided GOBS of Scripture, and you seem fixated on this. Why?
Fight !!! Fight !!!
I can’t answer your posting because it is incoherent. I don’t mean to insult you, but I don’t want to answer you based on an assumption of what you are saying.
II?
Is that YOU?
Good morning Elsie...
:)
I am surprised you need verses or names of popes, as even one would be sufficient, while persecution is irrelevant. The historical basis requires an unbroken succession of popes.
As for verses:
(1 Cor 5:11-13) “But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. {12} For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? {13} But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.”
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (Romans 16:17)
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. (2 Thessalonians 3:6)
And if he [an unrepentant trespasser] shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. (Matthew 18:17)
And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. (2 Thessalonians 3:14)
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (1 Timothy 3:1-4)
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(Hebrews 10:26-27)
As for popes:
Pope Sergius III (904-911) illegitimately fathered Pope John XI (931-935). Pope Sergius has been called “an unscrupulous man” who ruled the Church “arrogantly” (Quoted from page 162 of The Popes, A Concise Biographical History, edited by Eric John, Imprimatur, George L. Craven, 1962. Originally published in 1964 by Burns and Oates, publishers to the Holy See.)
Alexander VI (1471-1503) had at least six children, four of them by a Roman lady, Vanozzza dei Catanei (Ibid., p. 304.) “There is evidence” says The Popes: A Concise Biographical History that Alexander “maintained a mistress after he became pope and that her influence persuaded him to make her brother, Alexander Farnese, later Paul III, a Cardinal”. Alexander VI became especially known for advancing his children’s careers. John XII (955-964) who became pope at age sixteen, is described in the Catholic Encyclopedia as “a coarse, immoral man, whose life was such that the Lateran was spoken of as a brothel, and the moral corruption in Rome became the subject of general odium.” (Catholic Encyclopedia, (New York: Appleton, 1910) Volume VIII, p. 426). “There is no doubt” write the authors of The Popes, “that he (John XII) was a scandal to the whole Church” (P. 166).
At times, popes and bishops have accepted bribes for favors, as well as murdered political opponents. For example, Pope Sergius III “took the Papacy by force,” while Pope John XII is reportedly to have been “struck with paralysis while visiting his mistress” and died shortly after; and Pope Sixtus IV was involved in the plot to murder Lorenzo de Medici (The Popes, Eric John, pages 162, 166 and 301). Sixtus IV (1471-1484) made nepotism “the chief influence of papal policies.” His revenues, which exceeded 60,000 gold ducats a year, “enabled him to lead a life of luxury which astonished contemporaries and shocked many.” (The Popes, Eric John, p. 301). Pope Innocent VIII (1484-1492) a man whose morals were unsuitable for the papacy, would “openly avow his illegitimate children.” (Ibid., p. 302).
There are many more such examples that could be cited. (From R.C. apologist Robert Sungenis)
In the Middle Ages many popes were elevated to office following the murder of their predecessors. During one particularly grim period from 882 to 1046, there were 37 popes, some of whom served only a few weeks.
Leo V (903), for instance, had been pope for only a month before being imprisoned and tortured by one Christophorus, who then enthroned himself. Both men were killed in 904 on the orders of Pope Sergius III (904-911). Sergius later had a son by his teenaged mistress Marozia who became Pope John XI (931-935). In 914, according to one chronicler, Marozia’s mother Theodora installed her lover on the papal throne as John X (914-928). (Theodora and Marozia effectively controlled the papacy through their menfolk and may be the source of the Pope Joan legend.) John XII (955-963), who ascended to the papacy at 19, was accused, perhaps falsely, of sleeping with his father’s mistress, committing incest with his niece, and castrating a deacon.
Murder gave way to bribery as a route to the papacy in later centuries; some 40 popes are believed to have bought their jobs. But the lax attitude toward celibacy remained unchanged. In large part this was because the Church was an important route to wealth and power. Sons of influential families were pushed into Church careers much as we might send a kid to MBA school, apparently with similar expectations regarding morals. Noblemen with mistresses saw no reason to adjust their life-styles just because they had taken vows.
The spectacle of cardinals and popes putting their “nephews” into cushy jobs was a standing joke in Rome for centuries. Innocent VIII (1484-1492) had a son and daughter who lived with him in the Vatican. The notorious Alexander VI (1492-1503), born Rodrigo Borgia, had at least four illegitimate children while still a cardinal, among them the cutthroat Cesare Borgia and the reputed poisoner Lucrezia Borgia (actually, she probably never poisoned anybody). Clement VII (1523-1534), himself illegitimate, had a son whom he attempted to make duke of Florence. Paul III (1534-1539) had four kids; two teen grandsons he made cardinals. Pius IV (1559-1565) had three children, and the list goes on.
The Catholic Church has been reasonably forthcoming about the bad popes, having opened the Vatican archives to historians in the 19th century. (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/432/was-there-once-a-female-pope)
Note that i am not providing this to negate papal infallibility, but the validity of the such men as successors to Christ.
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