Posted on 05/01/2010 8:33:45 AM PDT by GonzoII
1. Starting with the First Vision, Mormonism teaches that all churches except the Mormon Church are an abomination in the sight of God. "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join" (Joseph Smith History, 1:18-20)
"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw• near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” He again forbade me to join with any of them;..."
2. The Doctine and Covenants also has Jesus Christ condemning ALL other churches, and especially the "great and abominable church". "And the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire, according as it is spoken by the mouth of Ezekiel the prophet, who spoke of these things, which have not come to pass but surely must, as I live, for abominations shall not reign" (D&C 29:21).
3. The Church has a history of identifying the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church.
"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one' (Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811).
"Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God." - Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939
"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon! (Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255)
"A great portion of the oriental country has been preserved from the grossest idolatry, wickedness, confusion, bloodshed, murders, cruelty, and errors in religion that have overspread the rest of the world, under the name of Christianity, or mystery of iniquity. An open defiance of God is no mystery; open drunkenness, and revelling debauchery, and all manner of wickedness and immorality professed by sinners who profess to be nothing else, are no mystery; they do not deceive anybody; but when all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names."
"Many that were honest have been deceived by this mystery of iniquity, who have esteemed things to be sacred, which were abominably corrupt; and corrupt superstitions have been revered because of the great names and sanctified professions that were attached to them. If such institutions actually professed wickedness, they would go for what they were worth; but when a thing professes to be holy, and takes the name of Christ as its founder, and the holy Prophets and Apostles, to carry out all manner of oppression, all manner of idolatry and idol worship, all manner of priestcraft and kingcraft, and more or less instigating division among nations and governments, all to carry out bloodshed, cruelty, the rack, the inquisition, and holding of men in bondage, ruling them with a red of iron, it is a mystery of iniquity calculated to deceive millions."
"But returning to the general corruption that has prevailed nationally, politically, and religiously, under the name of Christianity, leaving out Christ and his Apostles, I do think there has been no idolatry in the world, under any form or system, that could surpass it. It is the mystery of iniquity, the great whore of all the earth. It has brought the whole earth under a lasting curse, having departed from the laws of God, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, in consequence of which the earth is destined to be burned, and few men left" (Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.41)
"How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations."
"She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, "The whore of all the earth," making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches... But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain" (Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p.346).
"Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called "Babylon the Great"—"The whore of all the earth," with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries. The learned—the great—the mighty—the kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms" (Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109).
"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven" ((Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85).
The Evangelization Station P.O. Box 267 Angels Camp, California, 95222, USA Telephone: 209-728-5598 E-mail: evangelization@earthlink.net www.evangelizationstation.com Pamphlet 360
Sorry to upset your little cart, but living the beatitudes isn’t saving grace. When you comprehend The Grcae of God in Christ, you will be neither a Mormon nor a spittlist offering such inane comments like this ‘beatitudes’ nonsense. ... That’s your cue to try and spin your silliness into some grave assertion that ‘those who do not live the beatitudes are not christians.’ I dare say the Dali Llama lives more closely to the beatitudes than most, including you, buster. Do you really believe living the beatitudes is going to result in Salvation being awarded? ... That is a very mormonesque belief don’tchaknow.
I have stated numerous times and will affirm it now; adhering to the Two Greatest Commandments and living the Beatitudes will result in Salvation.
The Beatitudes are hardly nonsense. The Beatitudes depict the countenance of Jesus Christ and portray his charity. They express the vocation of the faithful associated with the glory of his Passion and Resurrection; they shed light on the actions and attitudes characteristic of the Christian life; they are the paradoxical promises that sustain hope in the midst of tribulations; they proclaim the blessings and rewards already secured, however dimly, for Christ's disciples; they have begun in the lives of the Virgin Mary and all the saints.
The Beatitudes reveal the goal of human existence, the ultimate end of human acts: God calls us to his own beatitude. This vocation is addressed to each individual personally, but also to the Church as a whole, the new people made up of those who have accepted the promise and live from it in faith.
I'm sure that puts me at odds with the vast majority of Protestants, but given a choice between the teaching of Jesus and Calvin I will go with the Jesus.
For my part, I will say this: I believe in God and Jesus Christ; but not the cults who, by financial necessity, claim to be truer and better than the others. The leaders know the economic facts: no members, no bucks, no church, no nice living! Once the metaphysical foundation is set, they follow Alinsky’s rules: Polarize and attack all the other cults!
This thread has a lot of that, doesn’t it?
You saw the light, did you?
Your posts here don't seem to reflect your post here:
OK its a Catholic/mormon thread...
I’m here for the mormon half...
:)
So are you here to state what the Mormons teach about the Catholic Church or to comment on if it is or isn't correct?
What do you think ???
His teaching was the accepted by all standard, agreed teaching, and by ALL Catholics and Eastern Orthodox to this day. It was not an oddball, one man position, from some era. That's why I wrote: "[and it’s been repeated by the whole Universal Church (the Catholic Church), and all the ancient schismatic Christians, Eastern Orthodox, Nesotirans, Coptics etc]".
So if a teaching is 'accepted' by lots of folks it is right?
You continue to evade the primary objection, and now repeat the second one, seeking to portray Rome as being in unity while Protestants I referred to are ever morphing in core doctrines. However, this has already been essentially been shown to be deceptive misleading.
In response to your 1st question, a core truth for those who in practice hold to the supremacy of Scripture as the infallible word of God - which was a core principal that defined Protestantism, and which is contrary to your liberal application of the term - has been one that, as stated before has demonstrable Scriptural substantiation. Therefore the core truths that all of the above class of Protestant denominations most universally have historically held to are the one they hold to today, which again, are the truths articulated in Nicene Creed along with the supremacy of Scripture and salvation by grace. In addition, multiple surveys consistently show that members of these churches have more unity around critical faith and moral issues than Catholics.
An examination of statements of faith of major evangelical denominations (S. Baptist, Assemblies of God, etc.) reflects this unity, and thus they are known for disfellowshiping teachers who depart from these tenets, while deviations from these core truths are most typically the domain of those who follow a man or office which effectively carries more authority than the Scriptures themselves.
As for disagreement outside these most universally held core issues, these are allowed to a limited degree among teachers, as Rome also allows, and despite its infallible office and teachings, its members evidence much disagreement among themselves.
As for how do i am to know that i am right and those that disagree with me are wrong, the answer has already been given, which is by the Berean method, which you reject, that of manifest Scriptural attestation to doctrine, using exegesis is manifests (contrary to Rome, which relegates historical events to being fables) and which is also affirmed by the power of God. It is abundantly manifest that both Jesus and the apostles invoked the authority of the Scriptures, and appealed to the reason of men. ( Mt. 22:29-45; Mk. 12:20; Lk. 12:57; 24:25-29; Jn. 5:36-46; Acts 17:2; 18:28; 28:23; 2Cor. 4:2 Rm. 3,4; 2Pt. 1:16-21) And rather than the church declaring that it was infallible whenever it spoke according to a declarative formula it infallibly declared, it propagated doctrine that had the testimony of Scripture and the power of God. (Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 6:1-10)
Now the questions for you are,
1. On what basis am i to know that Rome is infallible?
2. How many verses of Scripture has Rome infallibly defined?
3. Can you provide a complete infallible list of all infallible teachings?
4. Do all RC priests and laity agree with the teachings of Rome?
5. Do Catholics evidence greater unity in moral views and commitment than those in churches who hold to the supremacy of Scripture as the wholly inspired word of God and salvation by grace?
6. What is more beneficial: unity based upon implicit trust in an office which declares itself infallible, and by which it has had people killed who disagree with her, or unity in the gospel truth that results in demonstrable effects of regeneration, even if they can disagree somewhat in other issues?
7. Is the use of physical violence by the church to discipline church members, or subdue theological enemies, Scriptural?
8. Is praying to Mary and departed saints found in Scripture?
9. What transcendent authority did the apostles appeal to in preaching that Jesus was the Christ?
10. Is any other objective authority declared to be 100% inspired by God in whatever it says?
11. Were the Bereans wrong in examining the preaching of the apostles by the Scriptures?
12. Were the Pharisees wrong in teaching a doctrine as from God that went against Scripture?
It's refreshing to see a Catholic come right out and say it (I must have missed your previous statements). Two years ago, I posted about seeing a sign hanging on the local parish building that read:
Obey The Ten Commandments For Everlasting Lifeand at least one Catholic FReepmailed me to accuse me of lying about it.
I am far more concerned about what Christ commanded and promised than the emotional responses of any reformist, Pauline, or Calvinist heretics.
Did you read what VoL wrote? What exactly do you find that is wrong with what he wrote?
You live in a drean world if you think that Protestantism is united in anything. The millions of sects is manifest. and morphing doctrines are manifest, while Catholicism has lasted from Christ's time till today, unchanged by the thousands of heresies that tried to shake it apart. It's all there for anyone to see, in space (Japan, Paris, or Montana), in time (in 325 A.D. or 2010), same religion, Catholic, universal.
A study of history will bring you back to St. Peter from Benedict XVI.
Then read what Christ promised to St. Peter.
God bless.
Did you read what VoL wrote? What exactly do you find that is wrong with what he wrote?
ALL of what he wrote or your snippet?
Galatians 3:1-2
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
And I posted Scripture.
What exactly do you find that is wrong with what I posted?
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Is Peter the 'rock'?
As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'
BEFORE the following verses came along.....
1 Corinthians 10:4
and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. Luke 6:48
He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 1 Peter 2:4-8
4. As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him-- 5. you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6. For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 7. Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, " 8. and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS??? Genesis 49:24-25 24. But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel, 25. because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty, who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb. Numbers 20:8
"Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink." Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he. Deuteronomy 32:15
Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior. Deuteronomy 32:18
You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth. Deuteronomy 32:30-31
30. How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up? 31. For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede. 1 Samuel 2:2
"There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God. 2 Samuel 22:2-3
2. He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; 3. my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me. 2 Samuel 22:32
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God? 2 Samuel 22:47
"The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior! 2 Samuel 23:3-4
3. The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God, 4. he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.' Psalms 18:2
The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. Psalms 18:31
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God? Psalms 18:46
The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior! Psalms 19:14
May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. Psalms 28:1
To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.
Psalms 31:2-3
2. Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me. 3. Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me. Psalms 42:9
I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?" Psalms 62:2
He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken. Psalms 62:6
He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken. Psalms 62:7
My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge. Psalms 71:3
Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress. Psalms 78:35
They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer. Psalms 89:26
He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.' Psalms 92:14-15
14. They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green, 15. proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him." Psalms 95:1
Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation. Psalms 144:1
Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. Isaiah 17:10
You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress. Isaiah 26:4
Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal. Isaiah 30:29
And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel. Isaiah 44:8
Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." Habakkuk 1:12 O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish. |
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