What Does the Mormon Church Teach About Catholicism?

The Evangelization Station ^

[GonzoII]

Matthew 4:18-19

" 18. As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. "

Matthew is righting years after the facts he is relating. And one of the facts is that Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter. In the above verse Matthew is simply relating to his audience that this is the Simon who had his name changed to Peter.

God bless.

[GonzoII]

righting = writing

[GonzoII]

"As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'

Jn 1: 42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter.

[Elsie]

Matthew is righting years after the facts he is relating.

Yes; he is.

---

And one of the facts is that Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter.

The 'fact' is that He did not.

[GonzoII]

And one of the facts is that Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter.

"The 'fact' is that He did not."

Jn 1: 42

And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter.

[Elsie]

There is no change there!

Jesus merely said that he WOULD be called by the other name.

The TEXT is plain as day.

[daniel1212]

The problem with the historical argument is that in the N.T., you cannot even be a church member if you live in unrepentant, willful sin, which so many popes did, let alone be a pastor. Thus these cannot qualify as successors to Peter, nor is an office filled based upon genealogical pedigree. I addition, the utter lack of any plans or procedure for selecting a future new pope, and perpetuating his office, like as was carefully provided for replacing Judas, is most conspicuous, as major doctrines need such. But what we are given are the qualification for bishops/elders (same office).

As for Mt. 16, see a prior past, and i can gt back to that later if need be.

[daniel1212]

You are still resorting to broad brushing Prots as including all who are not part of Rome, which is neither accurate or proper to my replies.

As for Catholicism being unchanged, and the same in 325 A.D. as 2010, that is what is a dream world. Many key doctrines did not even promulgated till much later, nor was the “unanimous consent of the father” which Trent misleading used, often even close to being unanimous. You did not even have such as concerned the canon, or a infallibly defined one until after the Reformation. As for recent history, i respect the sedevacantists here: http://www.catholictreasures.com/articles/25errors.html

[GonzoII]

"Jesus merely said that he WOULD be called by the other name."

First, Peter "rock" was never used as a proper name in the ancient world.

Second, what would Jesus' motive be to say that Simon should now go by his "second" name, Peter? Can you provide one?

Third, why was Peter still refered to as Simon after Christ said he would be called Peter?

[GonzoII]

"The problem with the historical argument is that in the N.T., you cannot even be a church member if you live in unrepentant, willful sin, which so many popes did, let alone be a pastor."

Well, let me see some verses.

Which first 200 popes, who were killed, lived in unrepented sin?

Why were the authorities so bent on killing the "non-leaders" of the Catholic Church?

[GonzoII]

200 = ca. 20

[Elsie]

Second, what would Jesus' motive be to say that Simon should now go by his "second" name, Peter?

There you go again!

You got hold of this gnat and won't let go!

I provided GOBS of Scripture, and you seem fixated on this. Why?

[Tennessee Nana]

Fight !!! Fight !!!

[Leoni]

I can’t answer your posting because it is incoherent. I don’t mean to insult you, but I don’t want to answer you based on an assumption of what you are saying.

[Elsie]

II?

Is that YOU?

[Tennessee Nana]

Good morning Elsie...

:)

[daniel1212]

I am surprised you need verses or names of popes, as even one would be sufficient, while persecution is irrelevant. The historical basis requires an unbroken succession of popes.

As for verses:

(1 Cor 5:11-13) “But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. {12} For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? {13} But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.”

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (Romans 16:17)

Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. (2 Thessalonians 3:6)

And if he [an unrepentant trespasser] shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. (Matthew 18:17)

And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. (2 Thessalonians 3:14)

This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (1 Timothy 3:1-4)

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(Hebrews 10:26-27)

As for popes:

Pope Sergius III (904-911) illegitimately fathered Pope John XI (931-935). Pope Sergius has been called “an unscrupulous man” who ruled the Church “arrogantly” (Quoted from page 162 of The Popes, A Concise Biographical History, edited by Eric John, Imprimatur, George L. Craven, 1962. Originally published in 1964 by Burns and Oates, publishers to the Holy See.)

Alexander VI (1471-1503) had at least six children, four of them by a Roman lady, Vanozzza dei Catanei (Ibid., p. 304.) “There is evidence” says The Popes: A Concise Biographical History that Alexander “maintained a mistress after he became pope and that her influence persuaded him to make her brother, Alexander Farnese, later Paul III, a Cardinal”. Alexander VI became especially known for advancing his children’s careers. John XII (955-964) who became pope at age sixteen, is described in the Catholic Encyclopedia as “a coarse, immoral man, whose life was such that the Lateran was spoken of as a brothel, and the moral corruption in Rome became the subject of general odium.” (Catholic Encyclopedia, (New York: Appleton, 1910) Volume VIII, p. 426). “There is no doubt” write the authors of The Popes, “that he (John XII) was a scandal to the whole Church” (P. 166).

At times, popes and bishops have accepted bribes for favors, as well as murdered political opponents. For example, Pope Sergius III “took the Papacy by force,” while Pope John XII is reportedly to have been “struck with paralysis while visiting his mistress” and died shortly after; and Pope Sixtus IV was involved in the plot to murder Lorenzo de Medici (The Popes, Eric John, pages 162, 166 and 301). Sixtus IV (1471-1484) made nepotism “the chief influence of papal policies.” His revenues, which exceeded 60,000 gold ducats a year, “enabled him to lead a life of luxury which astonished contemporaries and shocked many.” (The Popes, Eric John, p. 301). Pope Innocent VIII (1484-1492) a man whose morals were unsuitable for the papacy, would “openly avow his illegitimate children.” (Ibid., p. 302).

There are many more such examples that could be cited. (From R.C. apologist Robert Sungenis)

In the Middle Ages many popes were elevated to office following the murder of their predecessors. During one particularly grim period from 882 to 1046, there were 37 popes, some of whom served only a few weeks.

Leo V (903), for instance, had been pope for only a month before being imprisoned and tortured by one Christophorus, who then enthroned himself. Both men were killed in 904 on the orders of Pope Sergius III (904-911). Sergius later had a son by his teenaged mistress Marozia who became Pope John XI (931-935). In 914, according to one chronicler, Marozia’s mother Theodora installed her lover on the papal throne as John X (914-928). (Theodora and Marozia effectively controlled the papacy through their menfolk and may be the source of the Pope Joan legend.) John XII (955-963), who ascended to the papacy at 19, was accused, perhaps falsely, of sleeping with his father’s mistress, committing incest with his niece, and castrating a deacon.

Murder gave way to bribery as a route to the papacy in later centuries; some 40 popes are believed to have bought their jobs. But the lax attitude toward celibacy remained unchanged. In large part this was because the Church was an important route to wealth and power. Sons of influential families were pushed into Church careers much as we might send a kid to MBA school, apparently with similar expectations regarding morals. Noblemen with mistresses saw no reason to adjust their life-styles just because they had taken vows.

The spectacle of cardinals and popes putting their “nephews” into cushy jobs was a standing joke in Rome for centuries. Innocent VIII (1484-1492) had a son and daughter who lived with him in the Vatican. The notorious Alexander VI (1492-1503), born Rodrigo Borgia, had at least four illegitimate children while still a cardinal, among them the cutthroat Cesare Borgia and the reputed poisoner Lucrezia Borgia (actually, she probably never poisoned anybody). Clement VII (1523-1534), himself illegitimate, had a son whom he attempted to make duke of Florence. Paul III (1534-1539) had four kids; two teen grandsons he made cardinals. Pius IV (1559-1565) had three children, and the list goes on.

The Catholic Church has been reasonably forthcoming about the bad popes, having opened the Vatican archives to historians in the 19th century. (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/432/was-there-once-a-female-pope)

Note that i am not providing this to negate papal infallibility, but the validity of the such men as successors to Christ.