Posted on 04/30/2010 8:03:48 AM PDT by Quix
I wish you would try to prove this upon the Scriptures. I do not think that you can (and I care not a whit for more blather written by men).
I do not know of any passage that says satan cannot operate outside of the natural laws, nor am I inclined to believe such a thing on it's face. In fact, I dare to say the Bible contradicts you.
The only proof I am aware of, that God himself says that satan can "only imitate," is the Father's absolute control of TIME. He ALONE knows the beginning from the end, and He will make His words happen. The Prophecy is the proof. The only other thing that is immutable is God's own Word, which is what the proof is *for*. We know that God's words will not return to Him empty.
So we have the Word of God, and It's proof, The Prophecy (which is the Testimony of Jesus Christ, hence the Word of God, too). Neither of these can possibly be wrong. They bear witness, or the whole shooting match is a lie.
Therefore, the Bible, and ONLY the Bible, is the sure standard to measure by. Regardless of any signs and wonders, if what is being preached or revealed is against that sure Word in any part, it must be WRONG.
Hallelujah! TRUTH at last!
Vile blasphemy.
What the Ark CONTAINED was a type of Christ-The Ark is a type of Mary. Christ did not birth Himself,dear Sister
No the entire ark was a type of Christ... The wood you want to make Mary was shittim wood that used in the construction of the Ark has always been viewed as a type of Christ's human nature (John 1:14). It points to the condescension of Christ in coming in the form of a man (Isaiah 53:2).
Unless it is mary that gives mercy ( which I think many Catholics do believe.). the mercy seat would not sit on top her..
The wood representing Christ' humanity held in it Him as fulfillment of the law and the prophets and priests ..It also held the manna that points to Jesus as fulfillment of the type of manna
That is where the High Priest splashed the blood for forgiveness...You guys have Jesus INSIDE the ark...and yet Mercy was found a top it..
The entire ark was a type of Christ, Catholics are just desperate to make scripture about her instead of Christ
The church fathers were not infallible
And you are? They lived closer to Christ than you did and many gave their lives for Christianity. Who in their right mind would believe someone who sits on FR and cannot back up many of their beliefs with historical consistent writings?
I make no claim of infallibility, that is why I appeal to the scriptures that are infallible
Who in their right mind accepts on faith the words of fallible, often spiritually confused men that disagreed with each other on many many matters.
That disagreement meant some now faceless man had to decide which to quote where to make their point sound true.
Who would ever take the word of men on anything when Gods word stands as the measuring rod of truth?
All I ask is show using the scriptures where Jesus or any of the apostles said Mary was sinless..
There is lots of Typology on this all backed up with the Early Church Fathers
As I thought you have NONE .. your "typology" is as faulty as the use of the ark ...It is all smoke and mirrors and without substance. Once again you trust the words of men ...
John the baptist leaped in the womb because of Jesus..the new King
You are reading into what Elizabeth said what you want it to mean and nothing more
Do you know what happened that the ark stayed at that house for 3 months?
2 samuel:6 6And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. 7And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God. 8And David was displeased, because the LORD had made a breach upon Uzzah: and he called the name of the place Perezuzzah to this day. 9And David was afraid of the LORD that day, and said, How shall the ark of the LORD come to me? 10So David would not remove the ark of the LORD unto him into the city of David: but David carried it aside into the house of Obededom the Gittite. 11And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom, and all his household.
It was not a "respite ...CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT
Unless some one touched mary and then dropped dead..it is a lousy .faulty context
Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.
LOL read the above Scripture..David was not being holy and saying I am not worthy as Elizabeth said.. He was fearful and did not know how to PHYSICALLY bring the ark to Himself..
That kind of false teaching comes from NOT reading the verse for CONTEXT CONTEX CONTEXT
Catholics trust men instead of the reliability of Gods word and what happens is heretical error as we see above
I have treated no one poorly today, particularly in the post you replied to.
As to Samaritans, who notably added pagan traditions to their adopted Hebrew religion, they too need words of truth... Moreso than most, regardless of the offense they might take.
Not only that “ark” has a meaning of “coffin”, “tomb”,etc and so we see when opened, the ark is empty. If they want Mary to be a tomb, so be it.
Name a TRUE Miracle produced by satan?
Here is something to help you from Father Jordan Aumann http://www.catholicintl.com/catholicissues/apparitions-truefalse-print.htm
Excerpts...
What the devils can and cannot do
The devils cannot do the following:
(1) Produce any kind of truly supernatural phenomenon;
(2) Create a substance, since only God can create;
(3) Bring a dead person back to life, although they could produce the illusion of doing so;
(4) Make truly prophetic predictions, since only God knows the future absolutely, and those to whom He chooses to reveal a portion of it. However, the devil’s intelligent conjecture about the future might appear to mere mortals a prophecy;
(5) Know the secrets of a person’s mind and heart. However, their shrewd intelligence and observation may enable them to deduce many things about a person.
But the devils can do the following:
(1) Produce corporeal or imaginative visions;
(2) Falsify ecstasy;
(3) Instantaneously cure sicknesses that have been caused by diabolical influence;
(4) Produce the stigmata;
(5) Simulate miracles and the phenomena of levitation and bilocation;(6) Make people or objects seem to disappear by interfering with a person’s sight or line of vision;
(7) Cause a person to hear sounds or voices;
(8) Cause a person to speak in tongues;
(9) Declare a fact which is hidden or distant.
Whatever nature or science can cause, the devils too are able to cause, according to what God may permit. See the Book of Exodus where the magicians and sorcerers of Pharaoh were able to accomplish some of the prodigies wrought by Moses and Aaron (Ex 7:11-12; 7:22; 8:7; 8:18-19; 9:11). Close to 200 A.D., Tertullian writes, “first of all, they [the demons] make you ill; then to get a miracle out of it, they prescribe remedies either completely novel, or contrary to those in use, and thereupon withdrawing hurtful influence, they are supposed to have wrought a cure.” (Apology of the Christian religion, 22).
In the face of the fallen angels’ power to deceive, it is no wonder that the Church is always very slow to declare a miracle or message authentic.
The devil has superhuman intelligence and is very clever, and to pretend that you can definitively judge in favour of something’s authenticity, without help, is presumptuous.
To know if something is false, it suffices to know that it says something contrary to the teaching of the Church. Hence, it is easier to pronounce against visionaries than in their favour. But the mere absence of doctrinal error is not enough. There have to be other positive indications.
The following quotations are from the final chapter of the rock-solid book Spiritual Theology (Sheed & Ward 1980) by Dominican Father Jordan Aumann.
Signs of the diabolical spirit
“…[S]ince the devil may disguise himself as a good spirit and even cause what appears to be authentic mystical phenomena, it is helpful to mention briefly the various signs of the diabolical spirit.
1. Spirit of falsity. The devil is the father of lies, but he cleverly conceals his deceit by half-truths and pseudo-mystical phenomena.
2. Morbid curiosity. This is characteristic of those who eagerly seek out the esoteric aspects of mystical phenomena or have a fascination for the occult or preternatural.
3. Confusion, anxiety, and deep depression.
4. Obstinacy. One of the surest signs of a diabolical spirit.
5. Constant indiscretion and a restless spirit. Those who constantly go to extremes, as in penitential exercises or apostolic activity, or neglect their primary obligations to do some personally chosen work.
6. Spirit of pride and vanity. Very anxious to publicize their gifts of grace and mystical experiences.
7. False humility. This is the disguise for their pride and self-love.
8. Despair, lack of confidence, and discouragement. A chronic characteristic that alternates with presumption, vain security, and unfounded optimism.” (p. 412)
Fr Aumann mentions other signs also: Impatience in suffering and stubborn resentment; Uncontrolled passions and strong inclination to sensuality, usually under the guise of mystical union; Hypocrisy, simulation, and duplicity; Excessive attachment to sensible consolations, particularly in their practice of prayer; Lack of deep devotion to Jesus and Mary; Scrupulous adherence to the letter of the law and fanatical zeal in promoting a cause.
Signs of the human spirit
“The human spirit is always inclined to its own satisfactions; it is a friend of pleasure and an enemy of suffering of any kind. It readily inclines to anything that is compatible with its own temperament, its personal tastes and caprices, or the satisfaction of self-love. It will not hear of humiliations, penance, renunciation, or mortification. If any director or confessor goes against its inclinations, he is immediately branded as inept and incompetent. It seeks success, honors, applause, and pastimes. It is always a great promoter of anything that will arouse admiration or notoriety. In a word, the human spirit neither understands nor cares for anything except its own egoism.
“It is sometimes difficult in practice to judge whether given manifestations proceed from the devil or from a purely human and egoistic spirit, but it is always relatively easy to distinguish between these two and the spirit of God. It will be possible in most cases, therefore, to determine that a given spirit could not possibly be from God and that it must be combatted, even if one is not sure whether it is in fact from the devil or the human ego.” (p. 413)
This is excellent and supports Protestants when they say that the “miracles” of a “vision “ are satanic deception
The Catholic church can’t even make up its own mind about what it believes. One pope declares something to be true and another comes along and changes that on him.
What’s going to be changed in Vatican III?
Your beliefs are gnostic since they cannot be measured throughout Christian history like consistently understood Scripture interpretations.
Join the club of another modernist scripture interpreter who elevates themselves above what many Holy Saints and Martyrs write.
Pride is a blinding,dear Sister!
The *church fathers* didn't have it over anyone on spirituality or connection with God.
Peter himself was rebuked for error on more than one occasion. Some by Jesus Himself and once by Paul.
Why would anyone care what YOU think either?
Name a DOGMATIC teaching that has changed? Dogmatic,not something a Pope said. Something like priest not being married is not Dogmatic and could change
There have been many Popes throughout history who never produced any infallible statements of faith
We can tell by the Roman Catholic treatment of us.
If he's prone to be heretical, why use ANY of his writings? Does the church really want to be known as an organization that uses the writings of a heretic?
I'm just passing along consistent beliefs of Church Fathers and Saints,so what you;re saying is you know more than them-This is called gnosticism,dear sister. You have a free will and are entitled to believe whatever you want
The reason I mentioned indulgences was that, whether one thinks they are a good thing or not, if one is granted for reading Scripture that would seem to argue that the Catholic Church is encouraging reading Scripture. The charge had been made that the church discourages it.
In general, I would say a thing's having the capacity to be abused does not necessarily prove that it's a bad thing.
“”If he’s prone to be heretical, why use ANY of his writings?””
Because there was time that he obeyed the teachings of the Church
You can sort of say he became partially protestant once he decided to go it alone on certain beliefs.
"Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help, or sought your intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, we fly to you, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother. To you we come; before you we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not our petitions, but in your mercy, hear and answer us. Amen."
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