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To: mlizzy; metmom; stfassisi
The late FR John Hardon explains miracles.. "In general a miracle is any effect perceptible by the senses, produced by God which surpasses the powers of nature. Immediately we must explain that there are three levels of natural laws that God can surpass and thus perform a miracle. There are the physical laws of visible nature. Thus the sudden healing of a fatal disease surpasses needless to say the powers of human physical nature. Indeed surpasses the powers of all physical nature. Walking on water is naturally impossible. The raising of a dead human being back to life exceeds all created power, and no one but God with His omnipotence can raise a dead person back to life. And just for the record, physical miracles are the lowest level of miraculous phenomena."

I wish you would try to prove this upon the Scriptures. I do not think that you can (and I care not a whit for more blather written by men).

I do not know of any passage that says satan cannot operate outside of the natural laws, nor am I inclined to believe such a thing on it's face. In fact, I dare to say the Bible contradicts you.

The only proof I am aware of, that God himself says that satan can "only imitate," is the Father's absolute control of TIME. He ALONE knows the beginning from the end, and He will make His words happen. The Prophecy is the proof. The only other thing that is immutable is God's own Word, which is what the proof is *for*. We know that God's words will not return to Him empty.

So we have the Word of God, and It's proof, The Prophecy (which is the Testimony of Jesus Christ, hence the Word of God, too). Neither of these can possibly be wrong. They bear witness, or the whole shooting match is a lie.

Therefore, the Bible, and ONLY the Bible, is the sure standard to measure by. Regardless of any signs and wonders, if what is being preached or revealed is against that sure Word in any part, it must be WRONG.

721 posted on 05/02/2010 9:31:29 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: roamer_1; metmom

Name a TRUE Miracle produced by satan?

Here is something to help you from Father Jordan Aumann http://www.catholicintl.com/catholicissues/apparitions-truefalse-print.htm

Excerpts...

What the devils can and cannot do

The devils cannot do the following:

(1) Produce any kind of truly supernatural phenomenon;

(2) Create a substance, since only God can create;

(3) Bring a dead person back to life, although they could produce the illusion of doing so;

(4) Make truly prophetic predictions, since only God knows the future absolutely, and those to whom He chooses to reveal a portion of it. However, the devil’s intelligent conjecture about the future might appear to mere mortals a prophecy;

(5) Know the secrets of a person’s mind and heart. However, their shrewd intelligence and observation may enable them to deduce many things about a person.

But the devils can do the following:

(1) Produce corporeal or imaginative visions;

(2) Falsify ecstasy;

(3) Instantaneously cure sicknesses that have been caused by diabolical influence;

(4) Produce the stigmata;

(5) Simulate miracles and the phenomena of levitation and bilocation;(6) Make people or objects seem to disappear by interfering with a person’s sight or line of vision;

(7) Cause a person to hear sounds or voices;

(8) Cause a person to speak in tongues;

(9) Declare a fact which is hidden or distant.

Whatever nature or science can cause, the devils too are able to cause, according to what God may permit. See the Book of Exodus where the magicians and sorcerers of Pharaoh were able to accomplish some of the prodigies wrought by Moses and Aaron (Ex 7:11-12; 7:22; 8:7; 8:18-19; 9:11). Close to 200 A.D., Tertullian writes, “first of all, they [the demons] make you ill; then to get a miracle out of it, they prescribe remedies either completely novel, or contrary to those in use, and thereupon withdrawing hurtful influence, they are supposed to have wrought a cure.” (Apology of the Christian religion, 22).

In the face of the fallen angels’ power to deceive, it is no wonder that the Church is always very slow to declare a miracle or message authentic.

The devil has superhuman intelligence and is very clever, and to pretend that you can definitively judge in favour of something’s authenticity, without help, is presumptuous.

To know if something is false, it suffices to know that it says something contrary to the teaching of the Church. Hence, it is easier to pronounce against visionaries than in their favour. But the mere absence of doctrinal error is not enough. There have to be other positive indications.

The following quotations are from the final chapter of the rock-solid book Spiritual Theology (Sheed & Ward 1980) by Dominican Father Jordan Aumann.

Signs of the diabolical spirit

“…[S]ince the devil may disguise himself as a good spirit and even cause what appears to be authentic mystical phenomena, it is helpful to mention briefly the various signs of the diabolical spirit.

1. Spirit of falsity. The devil is the father of lies, but he cleverly conceals his deceit by half-truths and pseudo-mystical phenomena.

2. Morbid curiosity. This is characteristic of those who eagerly seek out the esoteric aspects of mystical phenomena or have a fascina­tion for the occult or preternatural.

3. Confusion, anxiety, and deep depression.

4. Obstinacy. One of the surest signs of a diabolical spirit.

5. Constant indiscretion and a restless spirit. Those who constantly go to extremes, as in penitential exercises or apostolic activity, or ne­glect their primary obligations to do some personally chosen work.

6. Spirit of pride and vanity. Very anxious to publicize their gifts of grace and mystical experiences.

7. False humility. This is the disguise for their pride and self-love.

8. Despair, lack of confidence, and discouragement. A chronic characteristic that alternates with presumption, vain security, and un­founded optimism.” (p. 412)

Fr Aumann mentions other signs also: Impatience in suffering and stubborn resentment; Uncontrolled passions and strong inclination to sensuality, usually under the guise of mystical union; Hypocrisy, simulation, and duplicity; Excessive attachment to sensible consolations, particularly in their practice of prayer; Lack of deep devotion to Jesus and Mary; Scrupulous adherence to the letter of the law and fanatical zeal in promoting a cause.

Signs of the human spirit

“The human spirit is always inclined to its own satisfactions; it is a friend of pleasure and an enemy of suffering of any kind. It readily inclines to anything that is compatible with its own temperament, its personal tastes and caprices, or the satisfaction of self-love. It will not hear of humiliations, penance, renunciation, or mortification. If any director or confessor goes against its inclinations, he is immediately branded as inept and incompetent. It seeks success, honors, applause, and pastimes. It is always a great promoter of anything that will arouse admiration or notoriety. In a word, the human spirit neither understands nor cares for anything except its own egoism.

“It is sometimes difficult in practice to judge whether given man­ifestations proceed from the devil or from a purely human and egois­tic spirit, but it is always relatively easy to distinguish between these two and the spirit of God. It will be possible in most cases, therefore, to determine that a given spirit could not possibly be from God and that it must be combatted, even if one is not sure whether it is in fact from the devil or the human ego.” (p. 413)


728 posted on 05/02/2010 11:27:06 AM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: roamer_1

INDEED. WELL PUT.


787 posted on 05/02/2010 3:11:02 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: roamer_1; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; Godzilla; ...
RIGHT YOU ARE. Scripture seems rather clear about it.

Odd that the Roman Catholic et al edifice would, yet again, disagree with Scripture about such a thing:

5.Revelation 13:14
Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. Revelation 13:13-15 (in Context) Revelation 13 (Whole Chapter)

[SEE ALSO, DANIEL 11--EASIER READING IN THE MESSAGE VERSION--REGARDING WHAT'S SET UP in the yet to be rebuilt--the 3rd Holy of Holies]

6.Revelation 16:14
They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. Revelation 16:13-15 (in Context) Revelation 16 (Whole Chapter)

7.Revelation 19:20
But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. Revelation 19:19-21 (in Context) Revelation 19 (Whole Chapter)

Perhaps contradicting Scripture became an institutional hobby somewhere along the way.
857 posted on 05/02/2010 6:02:27 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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