Why Mormon Baptism Is Invalid: Sect´s Concept of the Trinity Differs from Christian Notion

VATICAN CITY, JULY 17, 2001 (Zenit.org).- Prompted by questions about Mormon practices, the Vatican recently confirmed that the sect´s baptism is invalid.

Last month the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith noted the invalidity of the Mormons´ baptism given their misconception of the Trinity and, consequently, the identity of Christ.

Father Luis Ladaria, a theologian at the Pontifical Gregorian University, explained today in L´Osservatore Romano the Church´s view about Mormon baptism.

"The baptism of the Catholic Church and that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," the theologian said, "differ essentially as regards faith in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in whose name baptism is conferred and, at the same time, in regard to Christ, who instituted it."

Father Ladaria pointed out that even non-Catholics can administer baptism validly, as the minister of the sacrament is, in fact, Christ himself. But the baptizer must do so in the name of the Trinity and "with the intention of doing what the Church does," he added.

Joseph Smith founded the Mormons in New York state in 1830. He was inspired to find the place were golden tablets were placed, which expressed the revelations of the prophet Mormon, written by him and his son Moroni. Mormonism is a "sacred history" rewritten in America, in which God revealed the "latter-day saints."

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith´s response is based on research requested by the U.S. bishops.

Father Ladaria said the formula used by the Mormons for baptism states that, "having received Christ´s mandate, I baptize you in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

But there is no real invocation of the Trinity, the theologian said, because, for the Mormons, the "Father," "Son" and "Holy Spirit" are not the three persons in which the one divinity subsists, but three gods who form a divinity.

The term divinity itself has no "substantial" content, because, according to this Mormon concept, divinity has come into existence given that the three gods have decided to unite and form the divinity to bring about the salvation of man. This divinity and man share the same nature and are "substantially the same," according to Mormon belief.

Such divergence in doctrine implies, Father Landaria said, that the Mormon minister does not have the intention, when baptizing, of doing what the Catholic Church does when it confers baptism.

I wonder if the outcome of this case will affect the mormon temple exclusions.

Uh....

I'd their OWN WORDS are what make them NON-christian more than anything.

Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?

[Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'.

When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'?

[Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly:

"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73);

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171);

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199);

"And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24);

"Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

Orson Pratt proclaimed:

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

"This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44),

"But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).

President John Taylor stated:

"Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167);

"Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

President Joseph Fielding Smith said:

"Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266).

"For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear:

"Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265);

"Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132);

"virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269);

"Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

President Wilford Woodruff stated:

"the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).

After all; THEIR OWN WORDS have declared Flds folks to be NON-mormon.

I wonder what it would be like if these folks spent their time preaching what they believe, rather than tearing down what others believe here? That would seem like a more Christ like approach. [Reno232]

You know, believing that we're not "of Antichrist"
-- like Brigham Young appaised of us
-- the same Young that Mormons have concluded is the supposed height of "education" (otherwise, why name their most prestigious university after him?)...
...anyway, believing that we're not of Antichrist" is a belief, Reno!!!

Likewise, believing that we're not "blasphemers" -- like Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball accused us of -- is a belief.

As for Young & Kimball, why did they have "lie, misrepresent, & tear others" (Christians) "down in the name of the Lord"? [Let me predict: crickets from you, yet again, eh Reno?]
More inconsistency from you & your leaders yet again, eh Reno?
More rank hypocrisy from you & your leaders yet again, eh Reno>
More two-faced talk from you & your leaders yet again, eh Reno?

Why didn't Young & Kimball spend their time preaching what they believe, rather than tearing down what others believe in the representative quotes that follow? (And certainly, not the only slams toward Christians they were guilty of):

Brigham Young: "...every spirit that does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist..." (Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 435)

Spencer W. Kimball: "...blasphemous are they who purport to baptize, bless, marry, or perform other sacraments in the name of the Lord while in fact lacking his specific authorization..." (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 494 re: labeling all Christian leaders who baptize, marry & perform sacraments as blasphemers!!!)

Reno, do you think all Christian leaders (those of non-Mormon ilk) who baptize, marry & perform sacraments are "blasphemers?" (If not, who are you to counter Kimball? If yes, we want to see an open "confession" vs. hiding behind holding this teaching "in private.")

Reno, do you think we who don't confess Smith as "prophet" are "of Antichrist?" (If not, who are you to counter a "prophet?" If yes, we want to see an open "confession" vs. hiding behind holding this teaching in "private.")

The subject of this thread...

“Why Mormon Baptism Is Invalid: Sect´s Concept of the Trinity Differs from Christian Notion,”

Is an important one for chrsitians to consider...

The mormon practice of dead dunking...necro baptism...is pagan and uinBiblical and therefore not a tenet of Christianity..

It is one thing for the mormons to practice their proxy water baptisms for dead Christians, Jews and other non-mormon people who were undesirous to join the mormon religion during their natural lifetime, and often against the persons expressed wishes...

That in itself is bad enough and intrusive into the dead persons last religious beliefs...

It is a whole other thing for the mormons to claim the practice is a Christian one...

And is offensive to the extreme...

To believe that by proxy water baptism, somehow the dead person will be asked if they wish to become a mormon, and then to go ahead and “do” all the temple “endowments” “sealings” and other unBiblical practices “for” the dead person is “christian” is blasphemeous to the REAL savior Jesus of the Chrsitian bible...

The heathen practice is not only offensive...it is horribly macabre...

To pretend to “convert” Christians out of Christianity and into mormonism is itself a questionable idea...

Why bother ???

Why dead dunk Adolh Hitler along with his millions of Jewish victims ???

Why dead dunk all 56 signers of the Declaration of Independance ??? Because their ghosts came back and “demanded” it be done ??? Was the guy who claims he was “visited” ever examined by a qualified doctor ???

Vladamir the Impaler and Queen victoria, George Wahington, many times over, most of the Kings and queens of Europe, Calvin and Luther, many of the Catholic popes and famous priests and nuns have all been dead dunked...Father Damian of Hawaii now has a “wife” or two according to the mormons and their “records” ..some mormon went to the trouble of “sealing” him to some female stranger...a man who was never married and who lived a celibate life..

The mother of the current president of the United states has all her “endowments” etc as though she had been a faithful tithe paying mormon all her life...She has “gone through the temple” and been “sealed” and whatever else a mormon prophet would be entitled to do...all without her having to ask or do any “works”...Since Stanley Ann Dunham was “sealed” to her son, Barack, making him an automatic mormon, we now have our first mormon president...(Theres no way to get around that little extra...its part of the mormon belief)

Dead dunking is big business for the mormon corporation.. they charge extremely high fees for often erroneous information about ancestors, real or imagined...The same rather more accurate information can be acheived for a whole lot less by going to the achives of the area the person had lived in...

The mormons claim that they have to dead dunk everyone who ever lived...Thus they “own” millions of names...many made up or with erroneus dates and information...and they refuse to change errors when live descendants have complained...

In the natural, it is impossible to collect the names of every person who ever lived...however the mormons boast they are doing just that...but their millions of names are not necessarily the actual names of people who once lived but anonymous lists of unknown people passed in by individual mormons hoping for brownie points to the mormon after life..none of the names are checked out but they are added to the big list called the IGI (International Genealogical Index)... Most reputable genealogical societies do not accept this as proof of generational connections for membership..

If the mormons want to dead dunk fictious people as a tenet of their religion, let them knock themselves out...

however when they dead dunk the Jews of the Holocaust even after being asked to cease the practice, they are blantantly offensive and grave robbing..

And when they deliberately dead dunk Christians into their mormon religion and claim that mormonism is akin to Christianity, one has to ask, “Why???” If mormonism is Christianity then why dead dunk known Christians ??? are they not already Christians ???

But it appears for their own reasons, mormons target the names of dead Christians just as they target the doors of live Christians...to convert from REAL Christianity into a sham called mormonism...such so called “challenges” come right from the enemy of Christianity, Satan himself...

Dead dunking is pagan, and unscriptural...there is nothing in the Bible to support such a heathen practice...While Jesus told us we must chose to accept and believe in Him and be saved or reject Him and be damned WHILE WE ARE ALIVE... mormons believe thyey can save EVERYONE just by dewad dunking them...

Dead dunking gives the impression that the Jesus of the Bible wasted His time and His precious blood when he shed it on the Cross to save us...As the mormons believe that they can save themselves and their families and others through it, they obviously do not believe that the Jesus of the Christian Bible is the Savior and has a name that is above all Names...

Dead dunking is king and savior for the mormons...

Jesus is King of Kings and Savior for the Christians...

Mormonism is NOT Christianity...

But we're perfectly within our rights to recognize the simple fact that Mormons are unable to baptize in the name of a Trinity in which they in fact do not believe. [Campion]

Yes, indeed, Campion. From the article: "The baptism of the Catholic Church and that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," the theologian said, "differ essentially as regards faith in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in whose name baptism is conferred and, at the same time, in regard to Christ, who instituted it." Father Ladaria pointed out that even non-Catholics can administer baptism validly, as the minister of the sacrament is, in fact, Christ himself. But the baptizer must do so in the name of the Trinity…

What this Roman Catholic leader is highlighting is Jesus Christ’s clear teaching in Matthew 28:19: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the NAME of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…

Since Romans 6 says we are baptized into an identity -- a NAME--a PERSON (Jesus Christ) -- and NOT into a church body, we are to first realize that we are baptized into a single Name. [Yet Mormon doctrine knows of no solo, single god apart from other gods en masse]

Now, what’s interesting is that Joseph Smith, who borrowed very heavily from the KJV early on in the Mormon church’s history, initially copied this in at least his early “revelations” (if not fully in practice): Look at these passages:
Doctrine & Covenants 68:8 (November, 1831): ”Go ye into all the world, preach the gospel to every creature, acting in the authority which I have given you, baptizing them in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”
3 Nephi 11: 27, Book of Mormon: ”And after this manner SHALL ye baptize in MY NAME; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.”

Now, Mormons, if they were to take these canonized Mormon "revelations" seriously, realize they can't skirt around this issue. Their "jesus" already said in 3 Nephi 11:27 that this single-NAME baptism matter was a "shall" issue -- not a ho-hum take-it-or-leave-it matter.

AND both that verse and D&C 68:8, make it clear that NO baptisms, Christian or otherwise, even Mormon or otherwise, are to occur in the plural names of the gods! (Not legit, authorized baptisms, that is).

So Mormons are stuck. They have ZERO authority to baptize in plural names, per both the D&C & BoM. Only in the single 3-in-1 Name of God revealed in 3 Nephi 11:27!!!

It may seem that the one place Mormon leaders do obeisance to the Trinity is in baptism! Yet all the rest of their theology is anti-Trinity!!!

They are two-faced.

(For those of you who are ex-Mormons, how often have you seen a Mormon baptism in the plural NAMES of divine ones?)

As usual lately, I don’t have much time due to work demands, but will give a brief reply.

Thank you Colofornian for making my point about misrepresentaion. You quote:
“Brigham Young: “...every spirit that does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist...” (Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 435)”

Why didn’t you give the full context Colo? Was B.Y. talking about you as Christians, or was he referring to the leaders of the churches AT THE TIME that were part of the mobs that were murdering the members of the church for no other reason than for what they believed? If you were to read the entire book, as well as other contemporaneous references you would have context, something conspicuously missing from your quote.

Cherry picking quotes doesn’t establish truth.

Also, you stated “Why didn’t Young & Kimball spend their time preaching what they believe, rather than tearing down what others believe...”

How much time did Young & Kimball spend speaking of other churches vs. preaching the gospel? 1000 to 1 maybe? How about you Colo? How much time do you spend here tearing down one church vs. preaching your beliefs? This is a politically conservative board, & yet if one looks at your posting history, one would find that you rarely talk about politically conservative things, rather 99% of your posts are about bashing LDS folk in one form or another.

How about spending some time here preaching the “word”, you know, what you believe, rather than the tearing down someone else’s beliefs?

You believe in what you do. I respect that. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that you have a belief, not a knowledge. You can’t prove indisputably that all your beliefs are correct, as amply attested by our previous tete-a-tete’s. You simply have opinions, ones shared by many others for sure, but opinions none the less. Until you have indisputable evidence backing the validity of your claims, perhaps it would be wise to ratchet it down a bit until you do. Just food for thought.

Got to get back to my part in saving capitalism & sharing the conservative agenda. Carry on as you see fit. However, don’t expect me to climb into the sandbox w/ you again. The lurkers would have ample opportunity to view those discussions by simply viewing our posting histories. Best wishes, & have a great day, whether that be filled w/ negative posts, or positive ones.

(For those of you who are ex-Mormons, how often have you seen a Mormon baptism in the plural NAMES of divine ones?)
_____________________________________________________________________________

I won't get into it with you, it's a waste of time, but I will answer this as it seems that even the ex Mormons aren't sure what we do.
As a Mormon myself, I can tell you that as I participated in and watched my daughter get baptized by immersion just this last Saturday in a water filled font, I was a great day for her and the entire family.

The great irony here is that the Catholic prayer is so similar, and in fact their position is that anyone who baptizes with this language is valid, except for Mormons of course...

Catholic prayer:

“I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

Mormon prayer:

“I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”.

I'm not sure how the various protestant sects do it.

That is all, as you were.

PSS - I never said that Polygamy was only ever practiced by the LDS, but it was the major group to practice it here in the US (not the only group) and the breakoff of a group THAT STILL PRACTICES IT. The FLDS are the True LDS because they have not renounced D&C 132.

JDW - You proved nothing, except you are not fully aware of the history of polygamy in the LDS. It is POLYGAMY (not polygyny) because there was BOTH polygyny and polyandry if you read the sources.

Also, if you are going to call me a liar, please do so to my face rather than infer to Colo and fail to ping me.

Also, the discussion of ‘child brides’, I noted that I knew 4 girls (ALL LDS and all from CA - not UTAH) who went to Utah with their parents to get married at age 14. If the propensity toward child brides is not part of LDS culture than why were these 4 Mormon girls married off in Utah BY THEIR PARENTS to older men.

It shows that young marriage to older men can be part of the Mormon mindset.

See, I deal in facts, and I can pull apart false arguments easily. I also know when a thread is being hijacked, so back on topic...

And I am off - back to the ranch!

The LDS have found a safe haven and a new breed of defenders in the current Oprah fad version of all paths are correct Christianity.

Indeed descriptive of MormonISM's allies. (In contrast to those who have friends who are Mormon...the distinction being the same as having homosexual friends, yet there are some allies of homosexual activists who argue their cause...that's the difference between lovingly embracing both homosexuals and Mormons -- while embracing neither of their causes...many FREEPERS cannot or will not discern the difference).

They sleep with they wayward great great grandchildren of the Whore of Babylon and use them accordingly...Irony abounds.

By this, I assume you are pointing more to Mormons themselves. Here their leaders label us up & down as...
...the "Whore of Babylon" (Lds apostles have like Orson Pratt, ancestor of Mitt Romney);
...as "of Anti-christ" (Brigham Young);
...as "blasphemers" (Spencer W. Kimball);
as "apostates" (Lds leaders galore)...
...yet ironically, they say in the same breath, "we're one, too!" (What? You're a "Christian-whore of Babylon-of Anti-christ-blasphemer-apostate, too!")

Of course, they don't usually mean the whole baggage. But how they parse it all to either strip us of our entire identity, or simply play theological games where they ignore what their leaders have said about us, I don't understand it all...
...But I guess, otherwise, their "oppressed & persecuted victim" sob story doesn't sell very well once it gets out all the different labels with which they've slandered the worldwide Church of Christ!

Irony abounds

Indeed, also in another way. Here, Reno was accusing us of "not spend[ing] their time preaching what they believe" and instead "tearing down what others believe not promoting our own beliefs"
-- yet it doesn't seem to click with them that unless...
...Joseph Smith...
...killed Rev. Green...
...in the Hall...
...with a monkey wrench [Note: in the UK version of "Clue," "Mr. Green" is known as "Rev. Green"],
...then no restoration...
...no new prophet...
...no new authority...
...no new keys of the kingdom...
...no new church...
...were needed! (It 'twas all superflous and unnecessary).

So Smith not only had to try to...
...kill Rev. Green...
...in the Hall...
...with a monkey wrench,
...BUT to paint Rev. Green and his fellow leaders as apostates...
...And not only leaders, but all professing Christians (hence Smith's description of ALL Christian "professors" as "corrupt" in his later versions of the First Vision).

And so, from the very get-go, even the Book of Mormon, Smith was on the attack of the Christian church. (If anybody doesn't believe my words, I openly challenge you to read them for yourself. Here, I'll give you some "homework"):
Book of Mormon:
1 Nephi 13:5
1 Nephi 13:6
1 Nephi 13:8
1 Nephi 13:26
1 Nephi 13:28
1 Nephi 13:32
1 Nephi 14:9
1 Nephi 14:10
1 Nephi 14:17
2 Nephi 6:12
4 Nephi 1:27-28
Doctrine & Covenants:
D&C 10:56
D&C 18:20
D&C 29:21
D&C 88:94

(And, Lds, don't give me "Just" look what Smith was enduring @ the hands of Missouri-ites "woe is me" sob stories with regard to the above passages, because ALL of these passages were Smith-sourced BEFORE any major Missouri problems--that last verse above was late 1832...and all but that last one were sourced by September, 1830).

Smith decided he was going to try to personally dismantle the worldwide Church of Christ in 1830! What gall Mormons have to either ignore all of these passages, or to somehow claim we don't have a right to defend the Christian church against these broadside attacks that have come direct from Mormon sources for 180 years!!!!

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