Posted on 04/15/2010 8:56:50 AM PDT by T Minus Four
Think of the Salt Lake Temple as a designer bottle holding a one-of-a-kind fragrance.
Think of the gardens and buildings of Temple Square as bubble wrap around that container.
Think of the City Creek Center to the south, the Church Plaza to the east, the Conference Center to the north, and the Family History Library and Church History Museum to the west as a firm, sturdy box around all of it.
When something merits that much protection, you have to figure rough bumps and bounces are coming down the road.
I get a feeling the LDS Church sees turbulence ahead -- nasty weather -- and it is making preparations.
It's not about being defensive and keeping things out.
It's about being protective and keeping precious things safe.
When the chilly winds blow, forest creatures gather all that's life-sustaining about them.
Horses in the fields cluster together to stand against the hail.
I feel the LDS Church battening down the hatches for bad weather.
The Tabernacle Choir, which was performing musical versions of Robert Frost poetry and other secular works, now releases CDs filled with songs of faith, assurance and the need to rely on the Divine.
I feel protection is the point behind the long row of sentries -- those Mormon temples -- that stand along the Wasatch -- the new Brigham City temple, new Payson temple, the new remade Ogden temple and all the others.
I feel protect precious things is the point of the new mission statements of LDS businesses, the point for books that are picked for publication and the lessons selected for manuals.
Part of the world would divide and conquer.
The church would gather and protect.
Something uneasy this way comes. Not a vilent clash as in Jerusalem -- where cultures fight openly. We won't be seeing stone throwers in the streets of Salt Lake City.
The battle here won't be about territory.
It will be about choices -- about the advent of a bolder, more self-indulgent popular culture.
The church can see the writing on the wall -- often literally.
And graffiti on the temple will never do.
It's time -- as the old hymn has it -- to "safely gather in, ere the winter storms begin."
The plan is not to force people away.
The plan is to keep what's on the inside safe from harm.
And if that means putting up ramparts and watchtowers, so be it.
Even heaven, if you believe the stories, is a gated community -- not to keep people away, but to safeguard the gentle hearts of those who dwell there.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- E-mail: jerjohn@desnews.com Jerry Earl Johnston chronicles his take on the Mormon experience in his column “New Harmony,” which appears on MormonTimes.com on Wednesdays and Sundays.
The Milk needs some MEAT!!
Resty, doesn’t the word ONLY mean that there are no other ‘begotten’? Your cult is rife with contradictions of your own tenets.
creed /krid/ Show Spelled[kreed] Show IPA –noun
1.any system, doctrine, or formula of religious belief, as of a denomination.
2.any system or codification of belief or of opinion.
3.an authoritative, formulated statement of the chief articles of Christian belief, as the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, or the Athanasian Creed.
So, by definition, the AoF are a creed.
Pitiful, contradictions abound in your assertions that you can’t even recognize! If Jesus was first, where did the ‘mother’ of this ‘first spirit baby’ come from to be ‘begotten’?
Eden was the first ‘gated residence’.
Based solely on the word of JS. None other. There is no other independently verifiable proof of his assertions.
JS threw the "acid" upon all of Christianity with his 1st vision statements.
That Jesus was the firstborn is established in scripture. Going beyond what has been revealed would be speculation on my part.
Colossions 1:14-15 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
Then, if you were honest, you might explain in your calculus why 'The Book of Abraham' is nothing like what is actually written in hieroglyphics on the Egyptian funerary papri which Joe pretended to translate.
But you make noises that sound so reasonable, so sincere ... yet you are as Jesus described the Pharisees of His day, a whited sepulchre.
Jesus was the Firstborn of every creature
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So the “great” straw grabbing mormon Bible “scholars” have done it again...
Twisted a Bible scripture into something they could use to prop up their ever sagging unBiblical fairy tale the book of mormon...
But you notice Norm said “Jesus” not “the Word” not “the Second Person of the Trinity” not “God”...
Jesus the ONLY begotton son of God was conceived in the mind of God before He created anything...
But the Word of God has always been God...
and NOTHING was created that was not created THROUGH Him...
So the Word was there BEFORE the man Jesus was created...
The scripture verse following Norm’s says...
For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16
But FAIR, FARMS, lds .org gave Norm this scripture...
Colossians 1:15
New International Version (©1984)
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
English Standard Version (©2001)
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
International Standard Version (©2008)
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
King James Bible
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
American King James Version
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
American Standard Version
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
Bible in Basic English
Who is the image of the unseen God coming into existence before all living things;
Douay-Rheims Bible
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Darby Bible Translation
who is image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation;
English Revised Version
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
Webster’s Bible Translation
Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature:
Weymouth New Testament
Christ is the visible representation of the invisible God, the Firstborn and Lord of all creation.
World English Bible
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Young’s Literal Translation
who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
Geneva Study Bible
{7} Who is the image of the invisible God, {i} the firstborn of every creature:
(7) A graphic description of the person of Christ, by which we understand, that in him alone God shows himself to be seen: who was begotten of the Father before anything was made, that is, from everlasting. And by him also all things that are made, were made without any exception, by whom also they continue to exist, and whose glory they serve.
(i) Begotten before anything was made: and therefore the everlasting Son of the everlasting Father.
People’s New Testament
1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God. He came in order to reveal the Father in his own person. See Joh 14:10 Heb 1:3. The love of God is revealed in Christ. He was the visible representative of the invisible God.
The firstborn of every creature. The thought is that he existed before creation began; born of God instead of being created by the divine fiat; born before any creature was called into existence. The passage does not say that he was the first created, but the first-born. He was before creation. See Joh 1:1,2.
Wesley’s Notes
1:15 Who is - By describing the glory of Christ, and his pre - eminence over the highest angels, the apostle here lays a foundation for the reproof of all worshippers of angels. The image of the invisible God - Whom none can represent, but his only begotten Son; in his divine nature the invisible image, in his human the visible image, of the Father. The first begotten of every creature - That is, begotten before every creature; subsisting before all worlds, before all time, from all eternity.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
15. They who have experienced in themselves “redemption” (Col 1:14), know Christ in the glorious character here described, as above the highest angels to whom the false teachers (Col 2:18) taught worship was to be paid. Paul describes Him: (1) in relation to God and creation (Col 1:15-17); (2) in relation to the Church (Col 1:18-20). As the former regards Him as the Creator (Col 1:15, 16) and the Sustainer (Col 1:17) of the natural world; so the latter, as the source and stay of the new moral creation.
image-exact likeness and perfect Representative. Adam was made “in the image of God” (Ge 1:27). But Christ, the second Adam, perfectly reflected visibly “the invisible God” (1Ti 1:17), whose glories the first Adam only in part represented. “Image” (eicon) involves “likeness” (homoiosis); but “likeness” does not involve “image.” “Image” always supposes a prototype, which it not merely resembles, but from which it is drawn: the exact counterpart, as the reflection of the sun in the water: the child the living image of the parent. “Likeness” implies mere resemblance, not the exact counterpart and derivation as “image” expresses; hence it is nowhere applied to the Son, while “image” is here, compare 1Co 11:7 [Trench]. (Joh 1:18; 14:9; 2Co 4:4; 1Ti 3:16; Heb 1:3). Even before His incarnation He was the image of the invisible God, as the Word (Joh 1:1-3) by whom God created the worlds, and by whom God appeared to the patriarchs. Thus His essential character as always “the image of God,” (1) before the incarnation, (2) in the days of His flesh, and (3) now in His glorified state, is, I think, contemplated here by the verb “is.”
first-born of every creature-(Heb 1:6), “the first-begotten”: “begotten of His Father before all worlds” [Nicene Creed]. Priority and superlative dignity is implied (Ps 89:27). English Version might seem to favor Arianism, as if Christ were a creature. Translate, “Begotten (literally, ‘born’) before every creature,” as the context shows, which gives the reason why He is so designated. “For,” &c. (Col 1:16, 17) [Trench]. This expression is understood by Origen (so far is the Greek from favoring Socinian or Arian views) as declaring the Godhead of Christ, and is used by Him as a phrase to mark that Godhead, in contrast with His manhood [Book 2, sec. Against Celsus]. The Greek does not strictly admit Alford’s translation, “the first-born of all creation.”
Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary
1:15-23 Christ in his human nature, is the visible discovery of the invisible God, and he that hath seen Him hath seen the Father. Let us adore these mysteries in humble faith, and behold the glory of the Lord in Christ Jesus. He was born or begotten before all the creation, before any creature was made; which is the Scripture way of representing eternity, and by which the eternity of God is represented to us. All things being created by Him, were created for him; being made by his power, they were made according to his pleasure, and for his praise and glory. He not only created them all at first, but it is by the word of his power that they are upheld. Christ as Mediator is the Head of the body, the church; all grace and strength are from him; and the church is his body. All fulness dwells in him; a fulness of merit and righteousness, of strength and grace for us. God showed his justice in requiring full satisfaction. This mode of redeeming mankind by the death of Christ was most suitable. Here is presented to our view the method of being reconciled. And that, notwithstanding the hatred of sin on God’s part, it pleased God to reconcile fallen man to himself. If convinced that we were enemies in our minds by wicked works, and that we are now reconciled to God by the sacrifice and death of Christ in our nature, we shall not attempt to explain away, nor yet think fully to comprehend these mysteries; but we shall see the glory of this plan of redemption, and rejoice in the hope set before us. If this be so, that God’s love is so great to us, what shall we do now for God? Be frequent in prayer, and abound in holy duties; and live no more to yourselves, but to Christ. Christ died for us. But wherefore? That we should still live in sin? No; but that we should die to sin, and live henceforth not to ourselves, but to Him.
>>Born Again Christians are much less likely to stab them in the back than the LDS are and are much better long term friends.<<
Who says we DON’T consider them to be our “Bosom Buddies” as you call it. We call it “Brothers and Sisters in Christ”. Having most of my in-laws and tons of my friends, evangelical born again Christians, I can tell you that we do.
I just don’t support the disparaging of ANY religion that does not adovocate violent subjugation of others.
- — - - -
You mean like your own in the past?
Danites anyone?
_____________________________________________
So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ (Joey Smith, Missouri, 1838)
Its Al Gore’s fault...
:)
Three levels of heaven, the top layer further divided into three levels
_______________________________________________
and none of those top layers getting room service...
What kind of resort is that ???
Have you read in the Bible that Jesus could not sin 'because His Seed remained within Him'? Are you able to see that 'Seed' in this context does not refer to sperm but does refer to spiritual essence? Jesus IS God, the Word WHO become flesh and dwelt among us. Yes Jesus had a premortal existence because He IS The God, The I AM Who was in the Beginning with the Father and was The Father.
There IS only One God and there will be no more, not any Mormons turning to gods, not any angels turning into gods, ONLY ONE GOD, expressed in a trinitarian way which does not mean separate men-gods with common purpose, it means I AM has three expressions of Himself, and Jesus Whom dwelt among men IS one of those expressions, the only means for your salvation, to be delivered from your sinful self.
Why would the bottom layer need to be gated? Who would want to go there?
_______________________________________
Anyone who’s thirsty...
Unless you live in the top two levels and then you are banned...no KT...Kitchen Recommend..
Nana’s down there in the kitchen with her Tea Pot...
y’all come and have a cup...
:)
Saundra is a solid polygamy advocate...
in April 2008 during the arrest of thge polygamists in Texas, she was the leading voice in these threads...
Saundra didnt you say that you are a 5th wife ???
Your cult is rife with contradictions of your own tenets.
****
It amazes me when even the Bible has warns the smuged
Matt. 7:
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
There are times even others contend that the Bible seems to contradict itself.
But I am thankful for the witness of The Book of Mormon and hte standard works for it resolves many of those areas in the Bible, and when that happens their are many times tears of Joy in the LDS heart.
THE EPISTLE OF PAUL THE APOSTLE TO THE HEBREWS
CHAPTER 1
The Son is in the express image of the person of the Father—Christ is the Only Begotten Son and thus above the angels.
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
It would be best to ponder Hebrews through the eyes of understnading-
Hebrews 1 The Son is in the express image of the person of the Father—Christ is the Only Begotten Son and thus above the angels.
Hebrews 2 Jesus came to suffer death and save men—He came to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Hebrews 3 Christ is the Apostle and High Priest of our profession—Jesus, being the Son is more than a servant—Now is the time and the day of our salvation.
Hebrews 4 The gospel was offered to ancient Israel—Saints enter into the rest of the Lord—Though tempted in all points, Jesus was without sin.
Hebrews 5 Ministers must be called of God as was Aaron—Christ was a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek—Jesus Christ is the author of eternal salvation.
Hebrews 6 Let us go on to perfection—Sons of perdition crucify Christ afresh—God swears with an oath that the faithful shall be saved.
Hebrews 7 The Melchizedek Priesthood brings exaltation and administers the gospel—It is received with an oath and covenant—Superiority of the Melchizedek over the Aaronic Priesthood—Salvation comes through the intercession of Christ.
Hebrews 8 Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for sin—God promised to make a new covenant with Israel.
Hebrews 9 Mosaic ordinances prefigured Christ’s ministry—Christ is the Mediator of the new covenant.
Hebrews 10 We are sanctified by the shedding of the blood of Christ—Superiority of his sacrifice—Those who fall from grace through wilful sin are damned—The just shall live by faith.
Hebrews 11 By faith we understand the word and work of God—Faith of the ancients was centered in Christ—By faith men subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, and worked miracles.
Hebrews 12 Whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth—God is the Father of spirits—To see God, follow peace and holiness—Exalted saints belong to the Church of the Firstborn.
Hebrews 13 Marriage is honorable in all—Christ is the same everlastingly—How the saints are to offer acceptable sacrifices.
Sorry didnt include you..
PING to # 416
Based solely on the word of JS. None other. There is no other independently verifiable proof of his assertions.
JS threw the "acid" upon all of Christianity with his 1st vision statements
Again you have to move the bar in order to try justify your prideful statement.
Again it was Joseph Smith a boy of 14 in a humble prayer seeking answers to his question of which church he should join and the Lord told Joseph Smith to join none.
So if one does not like the answer the next best thing to do is to demonized the messinger and throw a tantrum.
Resty, when you post the work done and offered from someone else, you really should cite them and not pretend the offering is derived from you. And I doubt seriously that you actually comprehend what you have just posted, because you are contradicting your own religion yet providing the Bible contradictions to Mormonism without realizing how the Bible contradicts the false offerings from your founder, Joe Smith!
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