Posted on 04/08/2010 8:15:01 PM PDT by truthfinder9
Skeptics claim that the flood narrative of Genesis1 is a rewritten version of an original myth, The Epic of Gilgamesh, from the Enuma Elish produced by the Sumerians. The flood of the Epic of Gilgamesh is contained on Tablet XI2 of twelve large stone tablets that date to around 650 B.C. These tablets are obviously not originals, since fragments of the flood story have been found on tablets that date to 2,000 B.C. It is likely that the story itself originated much before that, since the Sumerian cuneiform writing has been estimated to go as far back as 3,300 B.C.
The dating of Genesis is uncertain, since the preservation of papyri is not nearly as good as that of stone. Liberal scholars place the date between 1,500 and 500 B.C., although the events are claimed to have occurred several thousand years earlier.
Here is a brief background of the Epic of Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh was an oppressive ruler of the Sumerians, whose people called to the gods to send a nemesis. One nemesis, Enkidu, became friends with Gilgamesh, and the two went out on many adventures. Enkidu was eventually killed and Gilgamesh then feared for his own life. In his search for immortality, he met Utnapishtim, who had been granted immortality by the gods, following his rescue from the flood. Utnapishtim then recounted the flood and how he became immortal.
Superficially, the flood accounts appear to be similar:
Despite superficial similarities, the differences between the accounts are quite significant. The table below lists most of the differences.
| Characteristic | Genesis1 | Gilgamesh2 |
|---|---|---|
| Reason for flood | human wickedness3 | excessive human noisiness |
| Response of deity | the Lord was sorry He made man because of his wickedness4 | gods could not sleep |
| Warned by | Yahweh (God)5 | Ea |
| Main character | Noah ("rest")6 | Utnapishtim ("finder of life") |
| Why character chosen | a righteous man6 | no reason given |
| Intended for | All humans except Noah and his family7 | all humans |
| Decision to send flood | Yahweh (God)8 | council of the gods (primarily Enlil) |
| Builders | Noah and family9 | Utnapishtim, his family, and many craftsmen from city |
| Character's response | Noah warned his neighbors of upcoming judgment as "Preacher of righteousness"10 | Told by Ea to lie to neighbors so that they would help him build the boat |
| Building time | 100 years11 | 7 days |
| Boat size | 450x75x45 feet12 | 200x200x200 feet (unseaworthy cube) |
| Boat roof | wood13 | slate (top heavy?) |
| # Decks | 314 | 6 |
| Humans | Noah and family7 | Utnapishtim, his family, and craftsmen from city |
| Cargo | animals and food15 | animals, food, gold jewels, and other valuables |
| Launching | by the floodwaters16 | pushed to the river |
| Door closed by | Yahweh (God)17 | Utnapishtim |
| Sign of coming flood | none | extremely bright light sent by the Annanuki (collection of Sumerian gods) |
| Waters sent by | Yahweh (God)7 | Adad, with help from gods Shamash, Shullat, Hanish, Erragal, Ninurta |
| Reaction of deity to flood | in control of waters18 | gods scrambled to get away from water like "whipped dogs" |
| Duration of rain | 40 days19 | 7 days |
| Duration of flood | 370 days20 | 14 days |
| Boat landing | Mt. Ararat21 | Mt. Nisir |
| Deity's reaction to human deaths | no regret mentioned | regretted that they had killed all the humans |
| Birds sent out | raven returns, dove returns second time with olive branch, then leaves22 | dove returns, swallow returns, raven does not return |
| Offering after flood | one of every clean animal and bird23 | wines and a sheep |
| Aftermath | God promises not to destroy humanity by flood again24 | gods quarrel among themselves, god Ea lies to Enlil. Utnapishtim and wife given immortality like the gods |
| Repopulation | Noah and family told to multiply and repopulate the earth25 | Ea and Mami created 14 human beings to help repopulate the earth |
Among the similarities between the Genesis and Gilgamesh there are some that would be expected to be found in any flood account. Since both cultures existed in the Middle East, it is not unexpected to find that both accounts occurred in the plains of Mesopotamia. The Bible described the creation of humans in the locale of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, and never describes them expanding beyond that area prior to the flood. Therefore, this similarity (#1 on our list above) is just due to the nature of where the peoples lived.
Obviously, for humans to survive the flood, there would have to be a means of escape. A boat makes sense, since the cultures did not have the technology to build an airplane. Humans would not know that a flood was coming unless they were told so by someone. Therefore, the idea that the gods or God would warn certain humans would not be unexpected, either. Similarity #2 seems like an integral part of any ancient flood story, so does not constitute an unexpected similarity.
Since a flood would obviously kill livestock in addition to humans, it would make sense that the survivors should take some animals on board with them. They would probably want to eat during the time of the flood, so would be expected that food would be taken on board the boat. Therefore, similarity #3 would be expected in any flood account.
Since there was no glue or other sealing materials, it would be expected that the builders of the boats would use something natural that was water resistant. Hence, it is not surprising to find that both stories recount the use of tar or other natural resin. Eliminate similarity #4 as being significant.
The laws of physics require that wooden boats would float on top of the water (although this is questionable with the Gilgamesh boat, see below). When the waters began to recede, it would not be unreasonable for the boat to come to rest on a mountain or the foothills of a mountain. However, it would probably be expected that the boat would come to rest somewhere on the plains of Mesopotamia. Although superficially similar, the boats came to rest on different mountain ranges. The boat from Gilgamesh came to rest on Mt. Nisir, whereas the ark came to rest on Mt. Ararat. Why these details would have been changed is unknown.
Probably the most unique feature common to both accounts are the release of birds to determine when the waters had receded. However, there are some significant differences between the two accounts. In Gilgamesh, a dove is sent out first, whereas in Genesis, it is a raven. The second bird sent is a swallow in Gilgamesh and a dove in Genesis. A third bird, a raven, is sent out in Gilgamesh, whereas the dove is sent out again in Genesis and returns with an olive leaf. In Genesis, the dove is sent out a third time and does not return. If the Genesis account was copied from Gilgamesh, these details were changed significantly for no apparent reason.
The seventh similarity was a sacrificial offering made to the gods or God, when the main character had been delivered from the flood. The details of the offerings were quite different, since the Gilgamesh epic describes the offering of wines and a sheep. Noah sacrificed burnt offerings of all the clean animals on the ark, but no drink offering. Although it may seem like an unusual thing to do, in the cultures of the time, it would be expected that an offering would be made as an act of appreciation. In this age, it would be expected that religious people would offer prayers of thanks or at least a "Was I lucky" (depending upon one's religious worldview). Therefore, similarity #7 should not be seen as significant.
The first striking thing that one notices when reading the Epic of Gilgamesh is how silly the story is. Part of the silliness is because of the obviously human-like behavior of the gods. They are constantly fighting amongst each other, plotting and deceiving each other. One would expect this part of the story to be removed from a Genesis copy. Therefore, we would expect that the Genesis account would be changed to involve some kind of judgment, since Yahweh (God) does not capriciously destroy humans, as was done in the Gilgamesh epic. It would, therefore, make sense that Noah would be chosen for his righteousness although Utnapishtim was chosen for no apparent reason.
Even with these major changes not considered, there are many dissimilarities that would not be expected from a story copied from another story. For example, the timings of the flood accounts are vastly different. The Gilgamesh flood took only 3 weeks, whereas the Genesis flood lasted over a year. The Gilgamesh flood included several 7 day long events. This "perfect" number is found throughout the Bible, so would be expected to be retained if copied from the epic of Gilgamesh. However, the Bible uses numbers like 40 and 150 - much longer timeframes.
The boats in the two accounts are quite different. The Gilgamesh boat was an unseaworthy cube with a slate roof. Obviously, such a design would immediately flip over or roll around in the water. In contrast, the ark had dimensions that were ideal for a seaworthy ship. This fact might be surprising, since both cultures were not noted for their nautical skills. It is obvious that the gods of the Sumerians had no expertise in shipbuilding.
We have examined the similarities between the Epic of Gilgamesh and Genesis flood account of the Bible. Although there are a number of superficial similarities between the accounts, the vast majority of similarities would be expected to be found in any ancient flood account. Only two similarities stand out as being unique - landing of the boats on a mountain and the use of birds to determine when the flood subsided. However, both of these similarities differ in important details. In addition, there are great differences in the timing of each of the flood accounts and the nature of the vessels. Why these details would be so drastically changed is a problem for those who claim that the Genesis flood was derived from the Epic of Gilgamesh.
There are a couple possible explanations for the existence of multiple ancient flood accounts. One - that Genesis was a copy of Gilgamesh - has already been discussed and does not seem to fit the available data. The other possible explanation is that the flood was a real event in the history of mankind that was passed down through the generations of different cultures. If so, the Gilgamesh account seems to have undergone some rather radical transformations. The story is a rather silly myth that bears little resemblance to reality. In contrast, the Genesis account is a logical, seemingly factual account of a historical event. It lacks the obvious mythological aspects of the Gilgamesh epic.
Biblical narrative in tension with Biblical law....
I believe God made Earths atmosphere different then it is today. Thats one reason people lived much longer and the earth was more like a paradies with fruits and veggies growing everywhere.
There was a canopy of water that surronded the earth before the flood. It protected us from the Sun and everything from asteroids to comets.
The light you mentioned is interesting because that may be what made the water canopy fall to earth.
I have not heard of that before and would like to learn more. Thanks for bringing that to my attention
I think that early humans were more advanced than they are commonly given credit for being. Brain capacity was as large or larger than it is today, and there is evidence of sophisticated tool making, language, and religious belief. Yet five million years ago seems too far in the past for a cultural memory to survive to be recorded in even the Old Testament.
The basic question I’ve asked myself is this:
If there were a really, really big flood a long time ago and it left only one family, wouldn’t various accounts, even incorrect ones stem from it?
Sorry, Gilgamesh hopefuls.
I’m about as far from the current oceans as you can be- in the middle of the US , (KS) where they have uncovered huge prehistoric fish fossils- 2-3 thousand feet above sea level. I’m about 1000 feet above sea level and there are all kinds of sea creature fossils here in the limestone underlaying the soil.
Literalists generally have a hard time with dinosaurs and extinct mammals that predate the time frame for Noah’s flood.
I am a literalist who believes that there have been other ages on the planet, and other cataclysmic events ( at least one other worldwide flood) meteor strikes, etc.
Nepthalim (sp?), dinosaurs, etc. all had their time. The Biblical account picks up about 7000 years ago, with the 1st man created with an eternal spirit in the current conflict.
Not well worded, I know, but I have yet to see any science which causes me to even slightly doubt the Word of God.
Fossil evidence?
Neanderthal Brain Size at Birth Sheds Light on Human Evolution
September 8, 2008, National Geographic
"Three-dimensional computer-assisted reconstructions of Neanderthal infants based on fossils found in Russia and Syria suggests that our closest human relatives had brains as large as ours at birth and larger than ours as adults."
My mistake, as I thought you were asserting a much earlier period.
I have the worldview that scripture is truth (see 2 Timothy 3:16) so science will never cause me to doubt the Bible.
I do not have a problem with dinosaurs or extinct mammals that supposedly predate the time frame for Noah's flood...the dating techniques are flawed. Each of the dating techniques used that give old ages (potassium-argon, rubidium-strontium, or uranium-thorium-lead methods) use assumptions as to what the original chemical composition of the item was and that the rate of decay has stayed at a constant. This has been shown to be flawed since running water over an item (in a river?) has caused leaching of elements into and out of rocks (fossils) which will change the “age” of the fossil.
I simply take God at His word...
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 Peter 3:3-6 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
As for dinosaurs read Job 40-41 “Behold now behemoth”
The dinosaurs lived at one time with man...and there are plenty of reports of “dragon (read dinosaur) legends” in cultures around the world and old “text books” of science from hundreds of years ago that actually list some of these creatures as being alive at the time...
I agree with you that I have not seen any science that would cause me to doubt the Word of God. Hold to God's Word.
God bless
P.S. For more information I would suggest the book “In the Beginning” by Dr. Walt Brown
1 Corinthians 15: 21-22 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
If death is not the result of sin then we have removed the need for a savior and Christ died in vain. This undermines the enter gospel and is not true.
As for fossils on the planet not being living creatures included on the ark...the actual fossils would be the creatures not on the ark (that's why they died), but that does not mean that two of each kind of those same creatures were not on the ark. I don't believe we have a detailed “shipping manifest” of each creature as they boarded.
Ancient man was very intelligent. I would suggest reading the book “The Puzzle of Ancient Man” by Dr. Donald Chittick
“...the dating techniques are flawed.”
Not true. Many of these techniques are based on basic physics of radioactive decay.
“Job 40-41”
From “Is the Truth Out There:”
This is often absolute proof of dinosaurs and man living together. A careful review of these passages show that “literally” interpreting these words as dinosaurs is not literal at all. The first clue is the descriptions of the leviathan breathing fire and so forth. This sounds like figurative language describing the fear people had of this animal, after all what literal animal breathes fire? Also, the liberal use of “as” and “like” are dead giveaways of figurative speech.
Some Bibles footnote the behemoth as an elephant or hippopotamus. The leviathan sounds like another feared creature of Africa (such as in Egypt), the crocodile. Both the crocodile and hippo are extremely dangerous and have caused countless human deaths. They also fit the accounts in Job better than dinosaurs or mythical beasts.
“dragon legends”
I don’t think I’ll be using mythology to prove the Bible.
“I simply take God at His word...”
I do to, but let’s not oversimply and dumb it down.
If you want to get real technical, the Hebrew indicates specific types of animals, not all animals, which solves a lot of problems.
Water that stops asteroids? This is why skeptics make fun of us.
The “no death before Adam” argument is an example of picking and choosing certain verses, or parts of verses,, here’s why:
From “Is The Truth Out There?” See also Mark S. Whorton,’s “Peril in Paradise”
The...claim that death did not enter the world until after man sinned (known as the fall of man). Hence, the billions of years of “death, struggle, disease and bloodshed” could not have happened. The death of animals, and especially people, is an obviously emotional occurrence. One will notice in young-earth writings on this subject that they tend to spend more time on the emotion rather than proving their theory. People get caught up in the emotion and do not bother to stop and ask, “Wait a second, is this true or am I letting emotion get the better of me?” Indeed, the whole argument is contingent on whether or not sin brought death into the world. Another important part of the debate would determine if death is inherently evil to begin with.
First, the Bible does not state that sin entered the world with Adam. Most seem to forget about Satan. When Satan and his minions rebelled against God, sin entered creation. Sin existed long before Adam arrived on the scene. This fact is bypassed on the way to quoting Romans 5:12.1 Often the “…and death [came] through sin…” part is held up without acknowledging the qualifying statement that follows it: “…in this way death came to all men…” The verse specifically relates man’s sin to causing man’s death, not all other death in nature. In other words, man’s death was the result of his own choice and the Bible does not indicate that his sin caused all other death at that same moment. Since sin and evil existed before Adam, is that why the processes of death and decay existed before man’s creation? If that was the cause, then we have yet another support for death before Adam. But as we will soon see, death is not inherently evil, so sin or its evil purveyors could not be the sole cause (if they were a cause). In any case, since this physical death existed before Adam, then there is a good chance that the death described in Romans 5:12 refers to spiritual death.
At the very least, man must have died a spiritual death. Sin changed their lives and separated them from God. Christ came to die for humans to end this separation. Mankind’s separation was spiritual, so a spiritual being had to end it. Both Romans 5:12 and 1 Corinthians 15:21 tell us specifically to who death came and why. Animals can be affected by our sin, but they cannot sin so there is no reason to believe that their natural death is caused by man’s sin.
It’s also important to point out that not all suffering the result of sin. Job was called “blameless” (Job 1:8) yet he experienced suffering that would eventually vindicate God’s purposes. Jesus suffered the crucifixion, yet he was without sin. Suffering has a place in the “good” creation once one sees it from God’s perspective: Suffering is temporary and part of his “...plan to address rebellion in the heavens, do away with evil for eternity, [and] demonstrate His glory for all eternity to all of creation...2”
Your author needs to spend a little time with the book of Romans.
All of God’s Creatures suffered the fate of death through the actions of the first Adam, and look forward to the glorious liberty of the Sons of God as they are capable in measure.
It’s funny how people pick and choose parts of verses and even when its pointed out to them, they don’t get it. Fundie Alert.
“Fundie alert?” Woo-woo, put up the Drudge red and blue siren, lol.
Picking and choosing one or two Biblical passages has been used in attempts to support faulty doctrine and to refute sound doctrine. The impact of The Fall upon all Creation is spelled out in more than just a few passages in the Bible. Refute Genesis and you have the rest to contend with, as far as the Creation account, and the consequences of sin originating with Adam. It’s a cohesive whole. Dividing it up as if one Old Testament book refutes another in the New Testament, indicates a lack of sound Biblical understanding.
The water canopy would make it harder for some meteors,asteroids etc to break up.
I did not mean it was a sheild that prevented any bombardment from space.
Where did all the water come from when it rained for 4 days and covered the Earth??
It is quiet long, but an eye opener never the less. Digest it at your leisure and draw your own conclusions.
IMHO IT, has its own legs,and it is very challenging, a lot of "what ifs" and "Hm-mm" moments. Have at it!
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