Posted on 02/28/2010 8:30:39 AM PST by CondoleezzaProtege
John Calvin's 16th century reply to medieval Catholicism's buy-your-way-out-of-purgatory excesses is Evangelicalism's latest success story, complete with an utterly sovereign and micromanaging deity, sinful and puny humanity, and the combination's logical consequence, predestination: the belief that before time's dawn, God decided whom he would save (or not), unaffected by any subsequent human action or decision.
Calvinism, cousin to the Reformation's other pillar, Lutheranism, is a bit less dour than its critics claim: it offers a rock-steady deity who orchestrates absolutely everything, including illness (or home foreclosure!), by a logic we may not understand but don't have to second-guess. Our satisfaction — and our purpose — is fulfilled simply by "glorifying" him. In the 1700s, Puritan preacher Jonathan Edwards invested Calvinism with a rapturous near mysticism. Yet it was soon overtaken in the U.S. by movements like Methodism that were more impressed with human will. Calvinist-descended liberal bodies like the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) discovered other emphases, while Evangelicalism's loss of appetite for rigid doctrine — and the triumph of that friendly, fuzzy Jesus — seemed to relegate hard-core Reformed preaching (Reformed operates as a loose synonym for Calvinist) to a few crotchety Southern churches.
No more. Neo-Calvinist ministers and authors don't operate quite on a Rick Warren scale. But, notes Ted Olsen, a managing editor at Christianity Today, "everyone knows where the energy and the passion are in the Evangelical world" — with the pioneering new-Calvinist John Piper of Minneapolis, Seattle's pugnacious Mark Driscoll and Albert Mohler, head of the Southern Seminary of the huge Southern Baptist Convention. The Calvinist-flavored ESV Study Bible sold out its first printing, and Reformed blogs like Between Two Worlds are among cyber-Christendom's hottest links.
(Excerpt) Read more at time.com ...
You evidently do not consider my claim of a brother to be extraordinary requiring evidence, but you evidently do consider my claim of God to be extraordinary requiring evidence.
It is obvious to me that God the Creator is not obvious to you. Therefore, the passages from Romans 1 above apply.
The Creation of the present heaven and earth happened, therefore I used the past tense.
These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, - Genesis 2:4
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. - Revelation 21:1-8
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. – Matthew 10:28
The Holy Spirit convicted them of sin before they believed and were baptized. That is the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. They were dead in trespasses and sin and quickened, brought to life, and recognized their condition.
Amen!
The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy." -- Psalm 147:10-11 "He delighteth not in the strength of the horse: he taketh not pleasure in the legs of a man.
lol. I'd probably understand the crickets quicker than what you're talking about here, but I'm learning. 8~)
But of course, that's EXACTLY what He said.
"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you..." -- John 15:16
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) " -- Ephesians 2:4-5
"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. " -- 1 John 4:10"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Christians have a right to know their election by God from before the foundation of the world. Pity some men work so hard to deny them that assurance. You're playing for the wrong team, Mr. R.
The good soil "happened" according to the will of God from before the foundation of the world, "before men could do anything good or evil." What God has ordained will come to pass.
There is good soil. There is rocky soil. And there is shallow, sandy soil. The word of God takes root only in the good soil. And these soils differ because God "made them to differ."
"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:7
God knows which soil He is going to nourish. He knows whose stony heart He is going to replace with a heart of flesh. He "knows" because this is what He wants. And God always always gets what He wants, ultimately.
"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." -- Matthew 15:13
Twas naught but a trifling, good sir. In my zeal to procure the lost Institutes I endeavored to raise funds immediately forth with by creating as many returnable beer cans as possible. Knowing that my cardboard air freshener had been created from one of the very trees in my charge I saw it as being one with my Forest. Of course I say "MY" Forest only with the deepest affection, knowing that I am but an honorary steward. So you can see it was my dedication it was, that caused me to so risk life and limb for the return of the blessed Institutes. By grace I now see:
I loaned the Institutes to xzins who was going to make a few corrections and explanatory comments.
Praise and all manner of thanksgiving be to above, for my last words were "It SHALL be found!". So it shall be written, so it shall be done! I am your servant and pray I have found your favor good sir. The Institutes and the Forest are now all safe.
I beg you not to contest my unconditional election, for I have already sent my new swag tag to the engraver and it is too late for refund.
Anyone that “tulip” doesn’t resonate with may have a serious problem. Lotta people out there with strong delusions about the Lord God and what He’s like...
bttt
bttt
I and others have given you some, and I just read a post to you from BD a few minutes ago in which he gave you several more. So you cannot say you have not been given verses that teach Calvinism. You have been given them, on many occasions. All you can say is that you have a different interpretation of those verses. Therefore, for YOU there are no verses. That doesn't mean they aren't there, it just means they aren't there for YOU.
Predestination is used 6 times in the New Testament. SIX TIMES! And not once is it used as a list of names that will be saved.
That is six times more than the word Trinity is used, so I'm not sure what that is intended to show. And of course a list of names is referred to. Just from Romans 8 we have THOSE God foreknew and THOSE God predestined and THOSE God conformed to the likeness of his Son and THOSE God called and THOSE God justified and THOSE God glorified. ALL of these concern "THE LIST".
Yes, God’s sovereignty is mentioned throughout scripture - and if his sovereign will is to save WHOSOEVER BELIEVES, that is still his sovereign will. Only in bizarro world does sovereignty = make every decision.
In this case then bizarro world is in fact the Biblical world. :) I asked the simple question of where in the Bible does God leave things to chance, such that your salvation model would have some Biblical company in support. That should be easy to answer if "sovereignty = make every decision" is bizarro world.
Romans 8 says those he foreknew, he predestined, called, etc. Foreknow does NOT equal predestined.
I agree, but they are related. I think the following is an excellent analysis of this issue from Got Questions?: (all emphasis added)
Again, here are all the verses you have been asking for. Taken in the context of the totality of scripture they really do fit in nicely together. I have made Murray's argument before concerning predestination, although he did it better. Foreknowledge and predestination cannot reduce God to a simple scribe because in addition to the actions of humans, He would also be recording His own sovereign actions based on His own sovereign decisions made BEFORE the human actions. The Arminian view thus creates an unnecessary paradox. God cannot be a detached observer and involved participant at the same time. But under the Calvinist view everything fits and works together.
Indeed, the entire passage [Eph. 1:3 et seq.], running on thru chapter 2, is about us incorporate in Christ - corporate election, not individual salvation decisions. What did God choose? that in him we should be blameless and holy - the Gospel, not individual salvation decisions.
I see no warrant to jump to that conclusion. That builds in things that just aren't there. He means "us as individual believers as opposed to individuals who do not believe". Corporate election by category REQUIRES the results to be determined by chance, as well as demonstrates a God who couldn't care less which of His creation approaches Him. The God of the Bible does not work that way.
” 13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.” How did God choose us? By name? Or “through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth”? Where is the ‘name on a list’?
Yes, He chose us by name. Do you deny that God knew us by name before He created us? The last clause refers back to being saved, NOT to how God chose US to be saved.
Romans 9 is not about God making some individuals believe or not, but his setting aside Israel (corporate election, again) in favor of Gentiles.
Romans 9 tells of splitting Israel apart into individuals who are descendant of Jacob and individuals who are descendant of Esau. All of those individuals are descendant of Abraham and Issac, but not all individuals are children of the promise. Indeed Paul goes on to talk about individual Gentiles being grafted into Israel by faith. Corporate Israel is not by natural birth, but individually by faith.
The Gospel is simple. God repeats it hundreds of times in the New Testament alone. It takes genius to turn corporate election into individual salvation, and then twist the remaining scriptures by the hundreds to match 30 screwed up readings.
But we can explain all of your verses, plus the "30". They all fit together. Under your system there appears to be no coherent explanation for the 30. Doesn't that cause you any concern?
I’m thinking that even according to Calvinism that the good heart did not precede birth. In that case, I’d encourage you to look it up.
You can’t have part of the world totally depraved and another part of the world good hearted. That doesn’t fit the scripture.
So, if you find anything, let me know.
I wrote: “Or maybe he (Jesus) meant, “Those I love will believe and will be saved.”
Dr E replied “But of course, that’s EXACTLY what He said.”
Except what is recorded in scripture is: “And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.”
Nor do the verses the quoted by Dr E show that God loves some people, but hates others. John 15:16 reads “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.”
What? Jesus chose and appointed his disciples?
Duh!
And did God come looking for a people not looking for him? Of course. But anyone who reads John would notice Jesus speaks at great length about the need to believe, and how he calls all, but not all come - but that those who come, receive life.
“...these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
And that by believing you may have life. Believe to regeneration, or regenerated by a secret act of God to belief?
What does the word of God say?!
“You’re playing for the wrong team, Mr. R.”
Those who distort the word of God for their own ends are also described...
3He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ 5But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” 6he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
8 “’This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
9in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
It seems the Pharisees had gone to Seminary, and learned what God REALLY meant - what His secret will was! I’ll be content to play for the other team. It is the one Jesus is on.
“But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.”
How do you interpret this verse? Were they judged before Jesus said “For God so loved the world....?”
Did God anticipate that there would be those who would not believe?
Correct, because brothers are not extraordinary occurrence, but a common one among people; because we have seen brothers and sisters, and because in this particular case establishing the veracity of such a claim is not of extreme importance to all of us.
I have no reason to doubt your claim of having a brother because it is of no particular significance to our existential understanding of the world, what happenes to us when we die, what this is all about, etc. Whether God exists or not, on the other hand, is of extreme imprtance to most if not all people because it touches tot he core of our existence.
Under different circumstances, your claim of a having a brother, however, would have to be scrutinized. Situations in which having a sibling is important, such as inhertance claims and next of kin issues owuld be good exmnaples. In that case your claim could not be taken on your word because the information is of such importance that it must be verified.
With God there is not such thing as relative importance. The existence of God is of afects all aspects of our lives and claims about his existence cannot be taken lightly or casually, so all of them require rigorous evidence.
Now, if you told me that you have a brother who lives on Jupiter and raises pink unicorns on a farm there, I might be a little less inclined to believe you.
It is obvious to me that God the Creator is not obvious to you. Therefore, the passages from Romans 1 above apply.
It applies to you. It proves nothing. You could believe that Snow White really happened, it doesn't prove that it did. Again, universal claims about God are not something one can just hang on "personal experience" and "inner reality" or some proverbial spiritual "eyes and ears" and such nonsense. It's a topic that is too important to all of humanity to be reduced to unverifiable, personal, anecdotal, cultural, tribal and other human variables.
When something is important, you need hard facts, as in the case of blood transfusions, or your siblings in cases of inheritance, or establishing a genetic match for purposes of organ transplants, etc. We can't go on hearsay and anecdotal tales on such issues, as doing would be outright irresponsible and even potentially perilous.
The Creation of the present heaven and earth happened, therefore I used the past tense
LOL, go back to the post and see that you wrote "there was a Creator" and not "there was a Creation."
The Creation of the new heaven and new earth is yet to come
It's irrelevant. The relevant part is that you wrote "there was a Creator." Why not just admit it was typo, an honest mistake, and move on?
As an interesting side note concerning the second death mentioned above:
It's sad that God (or more likely someone pretending to speak for God) has to threaten people to make them believe and that people believe in order to be saved from God instead of by God.
BD: “But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.” / How do you interpret this verse? Were they judged before Jesus said “For God so loved the world....?”
We are all deserving condemnation. None of us has any merit that requires God to accept us. But God came and paid the price, and chooses to offer life to any who believe in Him.
As John wrote, “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already...” So the one who believes and accepts his offer of salvation is given life, while the one who refuses remains alienated, with condemnation waiting for him.
Some comments by Barnes:
Verse 16. For God so loved. This does not mean that God approved the conduct of men, but that he had benevolent feelings toward them, or was earnestly desirous of their happiness. God hates wickedness, but he still desires the happiness of those who are sinful. He hates the sin, but loves the sinner. A parent may love his child and desire his welfare, and yet be strongly opposed to the conduct of that child. When we approve the conduct of another, this is the love of complacency; when we desire simply their happiness, this is the love of benevolence.
The world. All mankind. It does not mean any particular part of the world, but man as man—the race that had rebelled and that deserved to die. See John 6:33; 17:21. His love for the world, or for all mankind, in giving his Son, was shown by these circumstances:
1st. All the world was in ruin, and exposed to the wrath of God.
2nd. All men were in a hopeless condition.
3rd. God gave his Son. Man had no claim on him; it was a gift—an undeserved gift.
4th. He gave him up to extreme sufferings, even the bitter pains of death on the cross.
5th. It was for all the world. He tasted “death for every man,” Hebrews 2:9. He “died for all,” 2 Corinthians 5:15. “He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world,” 1 John 2:2.
That he gave. It was a free and unmerited gift. Man had no claim; and when there was no eye to pity or arm to save, it pleased God to give his Son into the hands of men to die in their stead, Galatians 1:4; Romans 8:32; Luke 22:19. It was the mere movement of love; the expression of eternal compassion, and of a desire that sinners should not perish forever.
His only-begotten Son. See Barnes “John 1:14”. This is the highest expression of love of which we can conceive. A parent who should give up his only son to die for others who are guilty—if this could or might be done—would show higher love than could be manifested in any other way. So it shows the depth of the love of God, that he was willing to give his only Son into the hands of sinful men that he might be slain, and thus redeem them from eternal sorrow.
Verse 17. To condemn the world. Not to judge, or pronounce sentence on mankind. God might justly have sent him for this. Man deserved condemnation, and it would have been right to have pronounced it; but God was willing that there should be an offer of pardon, and the sentence of condemnation was delayed. But, although Jesus did not come then to condemn mankind, yet the time is coming when he will return to judge the living and the dead, Acts 17:31; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Matthew 25:31-46.
Verse 18. He that believeth. He that has confidence in him; that relies on him; that trusts to his merits and promises for salvation. To believe on him is to feel and act according to truth—that is, to go as lost sinners, and act toward him as a Saviour from sins; relying on him, and looking to him only for salvation. See Barnes “Mark 16:16”.
Is not condemned. God pardons sin, and delivers us from deserved punishment, because we believe on him. Jesus died in our stead; he suffered for us, and by his sufferings our sins are expiated, and it is consistent for God to forgive. When a sinner, therefore, believes on Jesus, he trusts in him as having died in his place, and God having accepted the offering which Christ made in our stead, as being an equivalent for our sufferings in hell, there is now no farther condemnation, Romans 8:1.
He that believeth not. All who do not believe, whether the gospel has come to them or not. All men by nature.
Is condemned already. By conscience, by law, and in the judgment of God. God disapproves of their character, and this feeling of disapprobation, and the expression of it, is the condemnation. There is no condemnation so terrible as this—that God disapproves our conduct, and that he will express his disapprobation. He will judge according to truth, and woe to that man whose conduct God cannot approve.
Because. This word does not imply that the ground or reason of their condemnation is that they have not believed, or that they are condemned because they do not believe on him, for there are millions of sinners who have never heard of him; but the meaning is this: There is but one way by which men can be freed from condemnation. All men without the gospel are condemned. They who do not believe are still under this condemnation, not having embraced the only way by which they can be delivered from it. The verse may be thus paraphrased:
“All men are by nature condemned. There is but one way of being delivered from this state—by believing on the Son of God. They who do not believe or remain in that state are still condemned, FOR they have not embraced the only way in which they can be freed from it.”
Nevertheless, those to whom the gospel comes greatly heighten their guilt and condemnation by rejecting the offers of mercy, and trampling under foot the blood of the Son of God, Luke 12:47; Matthew 11:23; Hebrews 10:29 Proverbs 1:24-30. And there are thousands going to eternity under this double condemnation—
1st. For positive, open sin; and,
2nd. For rejecting God’s mercy, and despising the gospel of his Son. This it is which will make the doom of sinners in Christian lands so terrible.
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=joh&chapter=003
“You have been given them, on many occasions. All you can say is that you have a different interpretation of those verses. Therefore, for YOU there are no verses. That doesn’t mean they aren’t there, it just means they aren’t there for YOU.”
For Internet purposes, I’m not really trying to convert anyone. I’ve posted hundreds - probably a thousand or more - replies to Catholics, but I don’t really expect any of the Catholic posters here to suddenly read a post of mine, run down to the nearest Baptist Church, and ask to be dunked.
I post for two reasons:
1 - Because if only one side is presented, it wins by default. I want lurkers, many of whom are not decided, to know there is more than one way of thinking - be it on what John 6 says about eating the flesh of Jesus, or what Romans 9 says about loving Jacob/hating Esau. If they care about it, they can read more, talk to friends and people they trust, pray, and make up their minds without me.
2 - I want the folks to reach a point where they can say, “I disagree with him, but what he says isn’t anti-scripture, but something someone sincerely trying to follow Christ might believe”.
If it reaches a point where you say, “I disagree, but I understand what you mean by corporate election, even though I don’t think it is the best explanation”, then we’ve probably gone about as far as we can go by posting stuff on the Internet.
“I asked the simple question of where in the Bible does God leave things to chance, such that your salvation model would have some Biblical company in support.”
Easy.
“”For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”
A plain reading of this text would be that God loves all of us, even though we are rebels, and that he offers us salvation if we believe. And if we believe, we will receive life.
Nothing in that verse or hundreds of others suggests God makes those decisions for us, or that he secretly gives us life without our knowing or believing.
“According to this verse, the basis of our being predestined is not something that we do or will do, but is based solely on the will of God for His own pleasure.”
True. Now define ‘predestined’. Election would be a better word anyways, but is it corporate (effective in Christ) or individual?
As written, those verses could support either. However, corporate election makes all the verses about our believing and receiving life make sense in the plain text.
“John 10:26, Jesus said, “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.” The reason some people believe is that they belong to God.”
Jesus also said, “...you refuse to come to me that you may have life.” Jesus, as God, knew full well who would or would not believe (foreknowledge). However, he also made it clear that ANYONE who comes will receive life, and those who refuse will remain in death.
I’m still waiting to hear the verse that says, “I gave you life that you might believe” instead of “these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
“But we can explain all of your verses, plus the “30”. They all fit together. Under your system there appears to be no coherent explanation for the 30. Doesn’t that cause you any concern?”
I deny it is the case. Calvinism says we are given life first, and then given belief as a gift. John wrote, “by believing you may have life”. Calvinism says the only ones who will believe are the ones God irresistibly calls, while Jesus said, “Whosoever believeth”.
No where does it say ‘God chose us, regenerated us and gave us belief as a gift”. On the contrary, it says, “Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” (Rom 5)
How do we obtain access into this grace in which we stand? By faith. Not by election, with faith following as a result of salvation.
The 30 or so verses involving election are easily and completely explained as corporate election, such as Israel had - they were the Chosen people, if they followed God by faith, as Abraham did. But, “...being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
Those who believe are incorporate in Christ:
“Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.”
It is all IN CHRIST! IN CHRIST we are put to death, raised to life, and seated in heaven: “But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.”
No, I’m not holding my breath waiting for Forest Keeper or blue-duncan to join the Society of Evangelical Arminians! I’d be glad if you did, but somethings must be left with God. And when we see him face to face, I doubt predestination vs free will is going to be on our minds or lips! But no, Arminians are not left with “no coherent explanation for the 30”. It might not be what you believe is the most accurate and best supported interpretation, but it isn’t incoherent.
BTW (personal note) - my family & I attended another SBC church, about equal distance from my home as the one I just left. They are looking for a pastor, and the member filling in - probably close to 80, a retired minister - preached with great passion on our need to repent and pray for revival. We haven’t joined, but it is a possibility. It is a small church, 40-50 members, I’d guess. My Calvinist former Sunday School teacher and I went hiking & looking for rattlesnakes last week. And we are both praying for each other...not about PD/FW, but about the trials of life.
Again. For the umpteenth time, NO ONE disagrees with that Scriptural truth.
We are all deserving condemnation. None of us has any merit that requires God to accept us. But God came and paid the price, and chooses to offer life to any who believe in Him.
So if "none of us has any merit" then where does our ability to trust God and believe in Him come from?
Arminianism is semi-Pelagianism, short and not-so-sweet. And as we see from your words, it's self-contradictory.
What I said was, “None of us has any merit that requires God to accept us.” And we don’t.
But God loves us...that pesky “For God so loved the world” phrase that Calvinists ignore. And in his grace and mercy, he has made a way for us to be saved. All we need do is say yes.
Saying yes is not a work requiring God’s acceptance, but God has said he will do so. So it is all about who God is and what God has decided - including his decision to give a choice to men without any future.
“For the umpteenth time, NO ONE disagrees with that Scriptural truth.”
Actually, you have. I wrote, “the one who believes and accepts his offer of salvation is given life”, while you have argued we are given life (in what Wayne Grudem calls a “secret act of God”) and then are given faith as a gift.
If you agree with me - that “the one who believes and accepts his offer of salvation is given life” - then you are now at least mostly Arminian. Congratulations on your conversion! See here:
http://evangelicalarminians.org/Join-the%20Society-of-Evangelical-Arminians
I appreciate your answer but you didn’t answer the questions.
“How do you interpret this verse?
“Were they judged before Jesus said “For God so loved the world....?”
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Do you agree with Barnes that condemnation is God’s “disapproval” and man’s “feeling of disapprobation”?
Barnes says the unbeliever “Is condemned already. By conscience, by law, and in the judgment of God.” He defines condemnation as God’s disapproval, “of their character, and this feeling of disapprobation, and the expression of it, is the condemnation. There is no condemnation as terrible as this—that God disapproves our conduct, and that he will express his disapprobation.”
Barnes chooses to see God’s condemnation as “disapproval” rather than forensically, as God’s judgment; His wrath. He does not want to give the impression that the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross appeased or placated an angry, settled, intolerance of evil that is contrary to the character of God; the settled hatred by one who could never be good and loving unless He totally hated evil. Thus he translates the word for “atonement” as expiation rather than propitiation.
Barnes was a minor theologian who wrote popular commentaries for Sunday School teachers. His stress was on the sentimental “love of God” over the rational, unselfish, intentional wrath of God. Yet all men are born into the world under the wrath of God. Sentence has already been passed; the whole human race is damned to hell. We are all children of wrath under the judgment of God. Man is born condemned and the effects of God’s wrath are experienced in this world and the next.
God’s wrath is dynamically operative in the world of men. When Adam and Eve sinned, immediately the sentence of death was passed, the earth was cursed and they were expelled from paradise. The whole creation still groans and travails in pain under that judgment of God. This was the world’s first lesson that that God hates sin. His hatred was revealed in the flood when God drowned the whole human race except for Noah and his family. It was revealed in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. It was revealed in the plagues on Egypt and the drowning of Pharaoh’s army. It was revealed in the curse of the law on every transgressor. It was revealed in the institution of the sacrificial system and all of the rituals of the Mosaic Law. It is constantly being revealed, all the time. People live and die. Nations rise and fall. God judges sin.
The greatest manifestation of the wrath of God was given at Calvary. God hates sin so deeply that He allowed His own Son to be put to death. That’s how He hated sin.
God’s condemnation is not His “disapproval” but His judgment; His wrath and those who disbelieve are already, before they disbelieve, under the wrath of God. They were born that way and God knew that.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
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