I and others have given you some, and I just read a post to you from BD a few minutes ago in which he gave you several more. So you cannot say you have not been given verses that teach Calvinism. You have been given them, on many occasions. All you can say is that you have a different interpretation of those verses. Therefore, for YOU there are no verses. That doesn't mean they aren't there, it just means they aren't there for YOU.
Predestination is used 6 times in the New Testament. SIX TIMES! And not once is it used as a list of names that will be saved.
That is six times more than the word Trinity is used, so I'm not sure what that is intended to show. And of course a list of names is referred to. Just from Romans 8 we have THOSE God foreknew and THOSE God predestined and THOSE God conformed to the likeness of his Son and THOSE God called and THOSE God justified and THOSE God glorified. ALL of these concern "THE LIST".
Yes, God’s sovereignty is mentioned throughout scripture - and if his sovereign will is to save WHOSOEVER BELIEVES, that is still his sovereign will. Only in bizarro world does sovereignty = make every decision.
In this case then bizarro world is in fact the Biblical world. :) I asked the simple question of where in the Bible does God leave things to chance, such that your salvation model would have some Biblical company in support. That should be easy to answer if "sovereignty = make every decision" is bizarro world.
Romans 8 says those he foreknew, he predestined, called, etc. Foreknow does NOT equal predestined.
I agree, but they are related. I think the following is an excellent analysis of this issue from Got Questions?: (all emphasis added)
Again, here are all the verses you have been asking for. Taken in the context of the totality of scripture they really do fit in nicely together. I have made Murray's argument before concerning predestination, although he did it better. Foreknowledge and predestination cannot reduce God to a simple scribe because in addition to the actions of humans, He would also be recording His own sovereign actions based on His own sovereign decisions made BEFORE the human actions. The Arminian view thus creates an unnecessary paradox. God cannot be a detached observer and involved participant at the same time. But under the Calvinist view everything fits and works together.
Indeed, the entire passage [Eph. 1:3 et seq.], running on thru chapter 2, is about us incorporate in Christ - corporate election, not individual salvation decisions. What did God choose? that in him we should be blameless and holy - the Gospel, not individual salvation decisions.
I see no warrant to jump to that conclusion. That builds in things that just aren't there. He means "us as individual believers as opposed to individuals who do not believe". Corporate election by category REQUIRES the results to be determined by chance, as well as demonstrates a God who couldn't care less which of His creation approaches Him. The God of the Bible does not work that way.
” 13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.” How did God choose us? By name? Or “through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth”? Where is the ‘name on a list’?
Yes, He chose us by name. Do you deny that God knew us by name before He created us? The last clause refers back to being saved, NOT to how God chose US to be saved.
Romans 9 is not about God making some individuals believe or not, but his setting aside Israel (corporate election, again) in favor of Gentiles.
Romans 9 tells of splitting Israel apart into individuals who are descendant of Jacob and individuals who are descendant of Esau. All of those individuals are descendant of Abraham and Issac, but not all individuals are children of the promise. Indeed Paul goes on to talk about individual Gentiles being grafted into Israel by faith. Corporate Israel is not by natural birth, but individually by faith.
The Gospel is simple. God repeats it hundreds of times in the New Testament alone. It takes genius to turn corporate election into individual salvation, and then twist the remaining scriptures by the hundreds to match 30 screwed up readings.
But we can explain all of your verses, plus the "30". They all fit together. Under your system there appears to be no coherent explanation for the 30. Doesn't that cause you any concern?
“You have been given them, on many occasions. All you can say is that you have a different interpretation of those verses. Therefore, for YOU there are no verses. That doesn’t mean they aren’t there, it just means they aren’t there for YOU.”
For Internet purposes, I’m not really trying to convert anyone. I’ve posted hundreds - probably a thousand or more - replies to Catholics, but I don’t really expect any of the Catholic posters here to suddenly read a post of mine, run down to the nearest Baptist Church, and ask to be dunked.
I post for two reasons:
1 - Because if only one side is presented, it wins by default. I want lurkers, many of whom are not decided, to know there is more than one way of thinking - be it on what John 6 says about eating the flesh of Jesus, or what Romans 9 says about loving Jacob/hating Esau. If they care about it, they can read more, talk to friends and people they trust, pray, and make up their minds without me.
2 - I want the folks to reach a point where they can say, “I disagree with him, but what he says isn’t anti-scripture, but something someone sincerely trying to follow Christ might believe”.
If it reaches a point where you say, “I disagree, but I understand what you mean by corporate election, even though I don’t think it is the best explanation”, then we’ve probably gone about as far as we can go by posting stuff on the Internet.
“I asked the simple question of where in the Bible does God leave things to chance, such that your salvation model would have some Biblical company in support.”
Easy.
“”For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”
A plain reading of this text would be that God loves all of us, even though we are rebels, and that he offers us salvation if we believe. And if we believe, we will receive life.
Nothing in that verse or hundreds of others suggests God makes those decisions for us, or that he secretly gives us life without our knowing or believing.
“According to this verse, the basis of our being predestined is not something that we do or will do, but is based solely on the will of God for His own pleasure.”
True. Now define ‘predestined’. Election would be a better word anyways, but is it corporate (effective in Christ) or individual?
As written, those verses could support either. However, corporate election makes all the verses about our believing and receiving life make sense in the plain text.
“John 10:26, Jesus said, “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.” The reason some people believe is that they belong to God.”
Jesus also said, “...you refuse to come to me that you may have life.” Jesus, as God, knew full well who would or would not believe (foreknowledge). However, he also made it clear that ANYONE who comes will receive life, and those who refuse will remain in death.
I’m still waiting to hear the verse that says, “I gave you life that you might believe” instead of “these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
“But we can explain all of your verses, plus the “30”. They all fit together. Under your system there appears to be no coherent explanation for the 30. Doesn’t that cause you any concern?”
I deny it is the case. Calvinism says we are given life first, and then given belief as a gift. John wrote, “by believing you may have life”. Calvinism says the only ones who will believe are the ones God irresistibly calls, while Jesus said, “Whosoever believeth”.
No where does it say ‘God chose us, regenerated us and gave us belief as a gift”. On the contrary, it says, “Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” (Rom 5)
How do we obtain access into this grace in which we stand? By faith. Not by election, with faith following as a result of salvation.
The 30 or so verses involving election are easily and completely explained as corporate election, such as Israel had - they were the Chosen people, if they followed God by faith, as Abraham did. But, “...being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
Those who believe are incorporate in Christ:
“Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.”
It is all IN CHRIST! IN CHRIST we are put to death, raised to life, and seated in heaven: “But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.”
No, I’m not holding my breath waiting for Forest Keeper or blue-duncan to join the Society of Evangelical Arminians! I’d be glad if you did, but somethings must be left with God. And when we see him face to face, I doubt predestination vs free will is going to be on our minds or lips! But no, Arminians are not left with “no coherent explanation for the 30”. It might not be what you believe is the most accurate and best supported interpretation, but it isn’t incoherent.
BTW (personal note) - my family & I attended another SBC church, about equal distance from my home as the one I just left. They are looking for a pastor, and the member filling in - probably close to 80, a retired minister - preached with great passion on our need to repent and pray for revival. We haven’t joined, but it is a possibility. It is a small church, 40-50 members, I’d guess. My Calvinist former Sunday School teacher and I went hiking & looking for rattlesnakes last week. And we are both praying for each other...not about PD/FW, but about the trials of life.