“You have been given them, on many occasions. All you can say is that you have a different interpretation of those verses. Therefore, for YOU there are no verses. That doesn’t mean they aren’t there, it just means they aren’t there for YOU.”
For Internet purposes, I’m not really trying to convert anyone. I’ve posted hundreds - probably a thousand or more - replies to Catholics, but I don’t really expect any of the Catholic posters here to suddenly read a post of mine, run down to the nearest Baptist Church, and ask to be dunked.
I post for two reasons:
1 - Because if only one side is presented, it wins by default. I want lurkers, many of whom are not decided, to know there is more than one way of thinking - be it on what John 6 says about eating the flesh of Jesus, or what Romans 9 says about loving Jacob/hating Esau. If they care about it, they can read more, talk to friends and people they trust, pray, and make up their minds without me.
2 - I want the folks to reach a point where they can say, “I disagree with him, but what he says isn’t anti-scripture, but something someone sincerely trying to follow Christ might believe”.
If it reaches a point where you say, “I disagree, but I understand what you mean by corporate election, even though I don’t think it is the best explanation”, then we’ve probably gone about as far as we can go by posting stuff on the Internet.
“I asked the simple question of where in the Bible does God leave things to chance, such that your salvation model would have some Biblical company in support.”
Easy.
“”For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”
A plain reading of this text would be that God loves all of us, even though we are rebels, and that he offers us salvation if we believe. And if we believe, we will receive life.
Nothing in that verse or hundreds of others suggests God makes those decisions for us, or that he secretly gives us life without our knowing or believing.
“According to this verse, the basis of our being predestined is not something that we do or will do, but is based solely on the will of God for His own pleasure.”
True. Now define ‘predestined’. Election would be a better word anyways, but is it corporate (effective in Christ) or individual?
As written, those verses could support either. However, corporate election makes all the verses about our believing and receiving life make sense in the plain text.
“John 10:26, Jesus said, “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.” The reason some people believe is that they belong to God.”
Jesus also said, “...you refuse to come to me that you may have life.” Jesus, as God, knew full well who would or would not believe (foreknowledge). However, he also made it clear that ANYONE who comes will receive life, and those who refuse will remain in death.
I’m still waiting to hear the verse that says, “I gave you life that you might believe” instead of “these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
“But we can explain all of your verses, plus the “30”. They all fit together. Under your system there appears to be no coherent explanation for the 30. Doesn’t that cause you any concern?”
I deny it is the case. Calvinism says we are given life first, and then given belief as a gift. John wrote, “by believing you may have life”. Calvinism says the only ones who will believe are the ones God irresistibly calls, while Jesus said, “Whosoever believeth”.
No where does it say ‘God chose us, regenerated us and gave us belief as a gift”. On the contrary, it says, “Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” (Rom 5)
How do we obtain access into this grace in which we stand? By faith. Not by election, with faith following as a result of salvation.
The 30 or so verses involving election are easily and completely explained as corporate election, such as Israel had - they were the Chosen people, if they followed God by faith, as Abraham did. But, “...being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
Those who believe are incorporate in Christ:
“Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.”
It is all IN CHRIST! IN CHRIST we are put to death, raised to life, and seated in heaven: “But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.”
No, I’m not holding my breath waiting for Forest Keeper or blue-duncan to join the Society of Evangelical Arminians! I’d be glad if you did, but somethings must be left with God. And when we see him face to face, I doubt predestination vs free will is going to be on our minds or lips! But no, Arminians are not left with “no coherent explanation for the 30”. It might not be what you believe is the most accurate and best supported interpretation, but it isn’t incoherent.
BTW (personal note) - my family & I attended another SBC church, about equal distance from my home as the one I just left. They are looking for a pastor, and the member filling in - probably close to 80, a retired minister - preached with great passion on our need to repent and pray for revival. We haven’t joined, but it is a possibility. It is a small church, 40-50 members, I’d guess. My Calvinist former Sunday School teacher and I went hiking & looking for rattlesnakes last week. And we are both praying for each other...not about PD/FW, but about the trials of life.
Thank you for your excellent, Biblical posts. Glad to hear about the possible new church. You’ll know it’s “home” if it is. :o)
Easy.
A plain reading of this text would be that God loves all of us, even though we are rebels, and that he offers us salvation if we believe. And if we believe, we will receive life. Nothing in that verse or hundreds of others suggests God makes those decisions for us, or that he secretly gives us life without our knowing or believing.
OK, thank you for answering. I believe you are the first Arminian who has admitted to me that not only does God leave some things to chance, but that He leaves the most important thing of all to chance, the salvation and eternal destiny of those He loves. If true, I think this view would tell us volumes about the true character and nature of our God. In His beautiful, loving, and omnipotent hands He holds and sustains our very lives, His creations, and yet with His love for us that is far beyond our wildest imaginations He leaves whether we will spend forever with Him or forever apart from Him to chance? I just don't see this God described anywhere in the Bible. If God's love is to have any real truth and power, then it takes no chances. There is no need.
[From the passage quoted:] “According to this verse, the basis of our being predestined is not something that we do or will do, but is based solely on the will of God for His own pleasure.”
True. Now define ‘predestined’. Election would be a better word anyways, but is it corporate (effective in Christ) or individual?
Many people use predestine and election interchangeably, but I consider predestining to be bigger. That is, I believe God's entire plan is predestined, and a part of that plan includes electing those He so chooses. I believe that corporate election necessarily entails random results, as discussed above, and would also show that God's preference is to have only a corporate relationship with us rather than a personal one. Given His unused omnipotence, in a corporate relationship God would not care whether I chose Him AS OPPOSED to any other choosing Him. The "whosoever" could wind up being any number, however it works out (granting that God would already know).
Again, I do not see this God described in the scriptures. Rather, I see a God who wants a PERSONAL relationship with each of His individual children. I see a God who wants to have intimate communication with ME, His beloved child, whom He chose to save, by name, from the foundations, for reasons having nothing to do with my merit, and known only to Him. In the way God has changed my life and continues to bless me and keep me I KNOW that I am not simply one in the batch who chose Him. I am one whom HE went out of His way to choose and love. And yes, He chose me and not the next guy. I don't know why, as I know I have ZERO claim to be chosen. All I can do is be awestruck, and thankful, and loving, and obedient, and sanctified, again all by Him.
And even though this is easy for me to say, I am not worried at all that this is not fair. If I got "fair" then I will be rotting in hell. That would be fair for everyone. All we believers can do is be thankful that our merciful God did not give us fair.
As written, those verses could support either. However, corporate election makes all the verses about our believing and receiving life make sense in the plain text.
And my contention is that reading grates against the nature and love of God that we are told of in scriptures. Just try to imagine the person you would be if all you could say is that you chose to love your own children corporately. Sure, you might equally not want misfortune to befall any of them, but your relationships with them would all be different and all also in love, i.e. not corporate. So it is with God and His children. Yes He loves all of us, but in a personal way, not in a corporate way. He leads us differently, He communicates with us differently, He sanctifies us differently, He blesses us differently, He challenges us differently, etc. The list goes on and on. All of these differences are revealed in scripture. They show the love of a Personal God.
Jesus also said, “...you refuse to come to me that you may have life.” Jesus, as God, knew full well who would or would not believe (foreknowledge). However, he also made it clear that ANYONE who comes will receive life, and those who refuse will remain in death.
This is all true. He was explaining to them and us what the playing out of the rules looked like and what a Christian looked like.
I’m still waiting to hear the verse that says, “I gave you life that you might believe” instead of “these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
Well, in the way I "think" you are using it, "life" is not the same as regeneration. Even though election is a "package deal" and so this is all academic, the technical order would be regeneration first, then belief, then awarding of eternal life.
Calvinism says we are given life first, and then given belief as a gift. John wrote, “by believing you may have life”.
This could be a matter of semantics, which would not be surprising given that it's all within the guaranteed package deal. If you have a specific quote I would be happy to respond to it.
Calvinism says the only ones who will believe are the ones God irresistibly calls, while Jesus said, “Whosoever believeth”.
Yes, both are true and do not conflict. Given that we all agree that God already knows the names of all the whosoever(s), Calvinism explains WHY the whosoever ARE the whosoever. Jesus simply does not address that issue in verses like John 3:16. Rather, God discusses that issue in the verses we have been giving you.
Those who believe are incorporate in Christ:
Yes, we are set apart from those who are not in Christ, but this does not mean that God deals with us identically on the basis of being in the one group. All of our walks with Christ are different because He saves us and deals with us as individuals, on a personal (and wonderful) basis. At a given time are not my needs different from those of my brothers and sisters in Christ? Of course, and God deals with all of our needs, again, on an individual basis.
No, I’m not holding my breath waiting for Forest Keeper or blue-duncan to join the Society of Evangelical Arminians! I’d be glad if you did, but somethings must be left with God. And when we see him face to face, I doubt predestination vs free will is going to be on our minds or lips!
Oh, when there's a break, I'll want to know. LOL!
My Calvinist former Sunday School teacher and I went hiking & looking for rattlesnakes last week. And we are both praying for each other...not about PD/FW, but about the trials of life.
I am very happy to hear there don't appear to be any hard feelings on either side about what happened. Sadly, I have seen hard feelings from some who have left our church for this or that reason not related to moving. I continue to wish you all the best in your search. Sounds like that old guy had a John the Baptist style to him. Jesus approved so it sounds good to me. :)