Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[daniel1212]

I was not defending this, but articulating it. I have contended with a Baptist friend, who much examples how a Christian should live, who preaches this.

[Mad Dawg]

If I ever thought that I’d be utterly astonished.

[Cvengr]

I fully agree in that considering the passage, we are to remain humble, in order for Him to show us what He has provided and how we are to proceed through faith in Him.

My faith is still being grown in this area, as I perceive I may have much of the reasoning down, but not fully, as I still am learning from His Word when I reread the passages.

[daniel1212]

You are writing from a more experiential aspect, but doctrinally, Hebrews, etc., is not warning of how you will feel, but something actual.

[Iscool]

Authority? It's called the free will of man. First thing, we must establish what a seal is, especially as applied to men by God.
A seal is a proof that the things sealed are true, What God promises is true, forever more. But we can break our own covenant with God, breaking the seal ourselves.
The seal is a mark of the first installment of our inheritance. A mark only.
When you disregard the Holy Spirit, you reject the covenant and break the seal of God.
Or else you break His seal and reject His promise.

'Nuff said? The seal is put onto us by the Holy Spirit, yet we can willingly break it by our disobedience.

Nuff said??? HaHa...

Sorry but your little personal notes are not scripture...

We are not sealed by the Holy Spirit...We are sealed WITH the Holy Spirit...The seal is definately NOT a mark as you would like us to believe...

But then maybe you have a mark...Maybe the Holy Spirit put his ring on you...

[annalex]

Archangel Gabriel came with the divine foreknowledge of the future birth and reign of the Savior, hence the future tense in his speech. Mary, however, did consent, as the Bible teaches us, in verse 38 of the scripture you quoted.

Interesting that one confessing the so-called believer baptism would not recognize one when he sees one.

[Iscool]

The mere fact that the Church teaches the doctrine of the Assumption as definitely true is a guarantee that it is true."

I don't whether to laugh or cry...These people WILL bow to God at the White Throne Judgement...I thank God that I won't be there...

[Cvengr]

I glean Hebrews 10 discusses salvation of the soul, but not the loss of the human spirit, nor the resurrected body.

[Mad Dawg]

NL's answer is important.

It is hard, maybe, to grasp how it fits in with our general view. But if you view the Church on earth as the field with "wheat and tares together sown, unto joy or sorrow grown," rather than the society of those whose election is made sure, then you will tend to have a ministry more like blowing on sparks (even imagined or hoped for sparks) in hopes that they may catch fire at last -- and less like trying to see who is orthodox and virtuous enough to be given access to the sacraments.

Excommunication is a good example in that it is said to be "medicinal," That is, it is a desperate wake-up call to the excommunicated, and a protection of the rest of the body.

And in such medicine, as in warfare, one can't operate like a liberal who thinks in terms of ideals and doesn't view the totality. One has to think of sometimes irritating and frustrating practicalities. It's filed under the subtle as serpents heading.

For example, suppose I were Bishop of San Fransodom and I excommunicated Stretch Pelousy. And suppose I had good reason to think that in the current sick state of things, if I did, two or more parishes might just throw up their hands and become the Californicate Catholic Church. Now whatever you want to say about money-grubbing and the rest, the fact is IF I am bishop, I am in a way responsible for ALL these souls. I am playing a whale on a 15 pound leader, and I have to do what will work, not what looks good and pure and all.

Even when I was an Episcopal priest, I found I had to be patient, which runs against my personal inclination, with the alcoholics, homosexuals, fornicators, embezzlers and whatnot in my care. This wasn't a "We're gonna fix it by Tuesday," kind of job. It could take decades. And sometimes I would look like a fool, and, no doubt, sometimes I WAS a fool.

One does what one can and commits is all to God.

@ Boatbums: I have had a couple of lambs with broken legs. I splinted them and generally they did become more dependent. I did not however carry them around with me. SOME sheep, however, are just plain contrary. Not many, but enough to keep life interesting (and one's vocabulary well exercised.)

[Mad Dawg]

Can we be real a minute? What is the ratio of clergy to Catholic lay persons in the Philippines? Is it a reasonable expectation that a priest would know the details of the daily life of his flock?

Our parish has a "companion parish" in Haiti. We send money, medicine, and workers. We have built a school and are able to provide meals from the students from a covered kitchen. The pastor there was hospitalized last year (or the year before?) for exhaustion.

He doesn't have a secret police or camera and microphones in the shanties of the people he spends himself serving. He is focussed on making sure the children are healthy enough and fed enough to learn. He sees the need and, with the help he gets from us, he tries to meet it.

Sometimes I think your side just doesn't understand how things work. We really do trust God (and ask Him to help us trust Him more.) We try to preach to the condition of our hearers. An old radio evangelist once told me that FIRST people hear the love of God. THEN in the light of that Love they are able to understand their sins and to begin to reform their lives. Despite the press we get, we preach the Gospel of Divine Love.

People are so numbed by polytheism and by sin in general that one obvious defect is that they lack anything like fervor for a God who does not "possess" them but rather liberates them. (That's one reason I pray for the gift of increased fervor myself.)

The school, the generator, the fuel, the buildings, the food, the clothing, the books and supplies -- these are all concrete witnesses to a Love that doesn't stop at "be warmed and be filled," but goes on to do some warming and filling. In a few cases, some blades put forth ear and then grain and can be harvested now. But in many cases we have to consign people to God's mercy and to plow, cultivate, fertilize, spray, hoe, and walk the middles to see how things are growing for generations.

Speaking of fertilizer: I'm not sure what the Philippines mean to you. To me they are, inter alia, a staging grounds where faithful Catholic clergy prepared to go to Indochina and China to be martyred. When others say we do not demand enough from our people, I will think about what we have given for our people.

But in any case, whatever we do, it is always so that the grain grows "we know not how." We do what we do, and look to God to give the increase.

To others that may seem antinomian (a strange charge to lay on Catholics.) We don't do it for your approval or even understanding, though we'd prefer your help to the stream of criticism. We have a more exigent Lord, who demands and then grants, but little by little, perfection.

And I cannot end without noting again that when we are not being yelled at for exercising iron and minute control over every aspect of people's lives, we are yelled at for not exercising sufficient control. If we hadn't been trained for two millennia to expect buffets and blows, we'd be a tad confused.

[Iscool]

Just a question....when Jesus was here on earth, do you believe he was just a mere man, a servant like the rest...or man and God at the same time?

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

We can not see God...We have to look at Jesus to see God...

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

So who was it that created the earth and all that there is??? Although many religions claim to believe in the Trinity, some religions have different views of what the Trinity really is...

As one can see in these scriptures, God says He is the Creator while in many passages Jesus is given the credit for being the Creator...

Then in John it says that the Word was with God, but then the Word IS God...

The way that I view the Trinity is that there are three, The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit...They are three, but also, they are one...

Of course that doesn't make much sense to the human mind...One might look at it and compare it to water...Water can be in the form of ice; it can take the form of a mist, or a fog or a cloud, and it is of course, a liquid...

One fella compares it to a football, or a tire...They have an outer shell, an inner tube, and they are filled with air...They are separately three, but yet they are one...

Jesus says that if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father...But yes they are separate, but they are One...

[daniel1212]

I see the Bible warning of forfeiting by rejection of faith what was appropriated by faith, but we should be "persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." (2Tim. 1:12) According to your faith be unto you. I did not list the differences among those who hold one may be lost, one of which fosters believers being in a perpetual state of anxiety. But i am only honestly telling you what i most clearly see, even if i cannot reconcile it with all the arguments (i believe apostates still have the spirit in them, in a much grieved state, but the "ye" of Eph. 1:13 and 4:30 does not apply to them, and seals can be broken: Rv. 5:1,2) As with the Arminian/Calvinism debate, i would rather concede an irreconcilable situation due to seeing "through a glass, darkly," to the fault of Scripture, than engage in unwarranted interpretations, forcing texts to fit theology. >In Galations 5, I think Paul is not just speaking to believers, but also some who were not convinced yet that Paul was speaking the truth about the role of faith in having eternal life.< This is the usual attempt to negate the obvious. Contextually, Paul is dealing with a specific group of Christians, to whom Paul states "God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father". (4:6) And more specifically, in the actually texts at issue, the ones being dealt with are those who were set free, who are warned not to be "entangled AGAIN with the yoke of bondage" and that of going back into Judaism, and so fall from grace, denying the gospel of grace by assenting - signified by being circumcision - to their gospel of works=righteousness. By so doing, Christ will not profit them anything,, bur is become or rendered of no effect, being effectually abolished (katargeō, ). In history, past and recent, there are those who quite evidently lived a regenerated life, but died as unrepentant doctrinal apostates, or adulterers, or who committed suicide as a consequence of so falling from grace. And as the Bible assures us we can know ourselves that we are saved, (1 Jn.) and so we rightly call those brethren, who with whom we enjoy the "fellowship of the Spirit" and manifest His fruit, so i find it disingenuous to dismiss such as never having been regenerated when they die as such, after accepting them as brothers. While (i know) some who profess to be born again but whom i stand in doubt of, yet like Peter, (Acts 8:22,23) we should be able to fairly consistently perceive, spiritually and by objective evidence, those who are born of the Spirit. Especially after continued long term fellowship, and in battle-tested warfare. As the Bible testifies that there are "things that accompany salvation" (Heb. 6:9 so the apostle knew that the Thessalonians were saved, "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God", as they had "received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost, and "turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God", and "sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place" their faith to God-ward was spread abroad; (1 Th 1:4-9) However, the Corinthians were more problematic, and the warning there is different than that of the Galatians, who were believers in danger of apostasy, as among the Corinthians there were those who had "not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed" (2Cor. 12:21) and so they were commanded, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Cor 13:5) This again presupposes that we can know whether we or others are in the faith, and 1 John provides more extensive delineation of what constitutes true faith, by which we may be assured we have eternal life. That said, the Laodicean church was yet treated as God's church, though in danger of being spit out, (Rev. 3:14-21) the implications being ominous. That it is not any faith that saves is evident: Hebrew 3 states, "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" 3:6,14) Let us not turn back in unbelief, which is the foundational failure, against which Hebrews is written. In short, "he that is born of God" he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God" "overcometh the world" (1Jn. 5:4,5) and the devil (1Jn. 2:14), and by faith we are "more than conquerors through him that loved us" (Rom 8:37) and must overcome to eat of the tree of life, (Rev. 2:7) and not be hurt of the 2nd death, (2:11) but to eat of the hidden manna, (2:17) and to have power over the nations, (2:26) and be clothed in white raiment, (3:5) and be made a pillar in God's temple, (3:12) and to to sit with Christ in His throne, (3:21) and shall inherit all things. (3:21) I do not think this does not means spiritual perfection, Paul's goal in Phil 3, but each of these churches were had certain things to overcome, as is given to believers now, and to go onto spiritual maturity, and they will do so by His grace as they continue in faith. I have much to go, and want to do more for Jesus, and thank God He plays for keeps. I can rest in Jesus for salvation, and trust in and pray the prayer of David, "The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands." (Psa 138:8)

[Natural Law]

"In Haiti, one can be a Catholic and still practice Voodoo...In the Philippines one can be a Catholic and still practice Buddhism."

You don't understand Catholicism. Like Salvation, being Catholic is a continual process requiring both faith and works. One is not Catholic simply because declares themselves to be Catholic anymore than one can be an NFL quarterback simply by declaring it. One is Catholic by being in Communion with the Catholic Church.One may deceive themselves and their priest, but ultimately no one can deceive God.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Forest Keeper, your posts are Scriptural sermons and Sunday school lessons and rock-solid logic all rolled into the perfect responses.

Bravo!

[Quix]

Now now,

trying to herd irrational thoughts into rational coherence is not the custom . . . it’s more the custom to wail and whine and throw dust in the air and rend clothes and blame and shout and run about.

. . . . regardless of how sensible, or not.

[Quix]

INDEED.

Though, as OUTSIDE SCRIPTURE as it might be . . . I still find the idea that God discusses with us some of the major specifics of our ‘thrownness’ into this bootcamp before we are born . . .

to be an intriguing one in keeping with His Nature.

We shall see.

[NoGrayZone]

I like your explanation....

Regarding this "One fella compares it to a football, or a tire...They have an outer shell, an inner tube, and they are filled with air...They are separately three, but yet they are one..."

To me, they are not one, but acting in unison.

Another problem I have saying Jesus is God and God is Jesus (I do believe Jesus is of God)is I believe it takes away from Jesus' glory.

Philippians 2:8-10 - And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

God didn't exalt Himself, but His Son, because He kept His Fathers commandments as a man, a mere servant.

I just think it takes away from Jesus' glory. God gave Him a name, above all things in heaven and earth, which is why no one gets to the Father except through the Son.

[wmfights]

These people WILL bow to God at the White Throne Judgement...

They don't understand what that means.

Rev.20:13...And they were judged, each one according to his works.

I don't see that working out to well.

[Petronski]

The mere fact that the Church teaches the doctrine of the Assumption as definitely true is a guarantee that it is true.

Since Christ founded the Catholic Church and assigned it just such a purpose makes your statement true.

This constant appeal to sola Scriptura, on the other hand, is baseless and contrary to the Scripture it purports to honor: sola Scriptura is a false tradition of men.

[Petronski]

I don't see that working out to well.

Shall I add that to the list of things you do not see?