Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[Mr Rogers]

“Though I here openly and ingenuously affirm, I never taught that a true believer can, either totally or finally fall away from the faith, and perish; yet I will not conceal, that there are passages of scripture which seem to me to wear this aspect; and those answers to them which I have been permitted to see, are not of such a kind as to approve themselves on all points to my understanding. On the other hand, certain passages are produced for the contrary doctrine [of unconditional perseverance] which are worthy of much consideration.” - Jacobus Arminius

[MarkBsnr]

Calvinists seem to live in a 2 choice world. Black or white. A or B. The idea that there could be a dozen choices, with 2 bad and the rest OK seems beyond Calvin’s idea of sovereignty.

Notice the constant reference to 'control'. The whole idea is still an emotional appeal to those who are otherwise unworthy of anything, or else on top of the temporal heap and are looking for justification for their good fortune.

God could make every decision for us. Since we all sin, it seems safe to assume he does not, unless God compels us to sin. Since God created a world in which Adam disobeyed, even knowing that he would do so, God seems to have given men the ability to make real choices - which may be a more accurate terminology than free will.

In a truly Calvinist world, the Beatitudes are completely unnecessary because it doesn't matter if you do them or not either before or after the Reformed Holy Spirit leopard leaps out of a truly, hijacks your soul, and turns you into a robot slave. You actually don't need Scripture either in the Reformed world since the Reformed Holy Spirit in the action of hijacking will inject the Gnostic knowledge that you need to know into the formerly free will brain.

We will be Judged. But if we are robot slaves, then Judgement is of no utility.

[blue-duncan]

“There are certainly scriptures that cast doubt on the question.”

Nowhere in that particular passage, Hebrews 6:4-6, does the writer say they have trusted Jesus for salvation. They have been “enlightened” and “tasted” but there is no evidence of commitment. The church is full of people who will say “Lord”, “Lord”; moths to the flame of the gospel but will fall away because underneath the veneer is a stoney heart or the cares of this world choke the light of the gospel.

[Quix]

Your honor, my client is clearly innocent. As the evidence plainly shows, he never DISPENSED drugs to his customers, he merely OBTAINED drugs for his customers.”

LOL!!! I love to see the court case of the word “vernerate” compared to “worship”. It would put Bill Clinton to shame.

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INDEED, TO THE MAX!

[Alamo-Girl]

LOLOL!

[boatbums]

My take, if you’re interested, is that once a person comes to true faith in Jesus Christ as savior and they are sealed with the Holy Spirit “until the day of redemption”, they cannot become unsaved, un-born again, un-adopted, unfilled with the HS. That would mean God would cast his child and the Holy Spirit into hell. That’s why I don’t ever try to judge whether or not someone is saved. I cannot see their heart, only God can. Also, since we are saved by grace, we are kept saved by that same grace. If we could lose our salvation because of sin, that would be no different than saying we are saved by not sinning, or saved by good works. That is just not what grace is all about.

Those verses from Hebrews can be read as saying that since Christ cannot be sacrificed again, one cannot re-repent and be reborn again, EVER. No second chances, you blow it once it is IMPOSSIBLE to return again to the former state and start over. If this is what is meant, then the parable of the prodigal son would have ended with him staying with the pigs. I think instead this means we can never go that far because we have the Holy Spirit indwelling us, if we are truly his. God is a God of second chances, and thirds, and fourths, and...

[Cronos]

Post 7788: God gives us full measure when we accept it -- remember that our act of acceptance is "Rom 10:17 So Faith comes from hearing and hearing through the word of Christ"

See post 7,788. “anything but?” What a creature! Not even Michael the archangel or the mighty apostle Paul has such powers and functions ascribed to them in the heavenly realm. “All but unlimited power” “Dispenser of all gifts?” Chapter and verse please.

Huh?

[Cronos]

You’re referring to 7785: “no one in 2000 years has ever stated or insinuated or implied that Mary was anything but a creature” — and that’s true. Can you name any point, anyone who has ever said Mary was not created by God?

[Cronos]

The Mother of Elizabeth's Lord is NOT the Mother of Elizabeth's God...

Elizabeth's Lord = Jesus, correct?

You say Elizabeth's Lord <> Elizabeth's God?

[Cronos]

When Jesus was asked where His mother and brothers were, He pointed to believers as His family. Rome points away.

Matt 12: 46-50 --> so Rome points away? Thank goodness The Church points to his Apostles as His family.

[HarleyD]

God gives us the opportunity to believe. But scripture teaches that men with the opportunity often reject it.

God gives everyone the opportunity to believe. Yes.

Scripture teaches that men with the opportunity often reject it. No.

Scripture teached that men with the opportunity will always reject it. That is what Romans 1 is all about.

Scripture teaches that WE often reject his will for our lives - it is called sin.

No, scripture teaches that before Christ will are slaves to sin. We will always reject His will. When be become new creatures in Christ old things have passed away and everything become new. We will, for the most part, desire to do His will. We will stumble from time to time and sin. But He is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from unrighteousness.

Every time we sin, we prove that we can refuse to believe God.

We sin because we are deceived by our own lusts. Non-Christians will continue in their lusts refusing to acknowledge God forever. It isn't that they refuse to believe God. Romans 1 says not only sin but they approve and encourage others to sin. I know it's no longer politically correct, but non-Christians, we are told, are children of the devil.

Christians are new creatures in Christ. We are slaves of righteousness. We will sin from time to time but our sin ISN'T because we don't believe God. Our sin is because we are led by the lusts of our old nature. Christians cannot keep on sinning, simply because of the Holy Spirit in us-not because WE want to be obedient. We are rebellious children whom God is conforming to His image.

1Jn 3:4-10 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

And just to avoid the argument; yes, Christians do sin. John makes this very clear when he states, "If we say we have no sin then the truth is not in us." The difference is that non-Christians practice sin and are children of the devil. Christians do not practice sin but from time to time are led by their lusts. They are children of God.

And as John says, "Little children, let no one deceive you. There's that word again.

[HarleyD]

All our fellow Freepers know of us is what they see in our posts.

Even our posts have personalities.

[HarleyD]

Exactly what Baptist denomination do you attend if I may ask? Your comments seem far a field from the traditional and many Baptist churches I’ve attended.

[HarleyD]

If you believe in "free will" then it doesn't surprise me to see you believe one can lose their salvation. You start down this path and that is where you head. Then you will feel the need to work for your salvation. Then you will feel that you are not doing enough for your salvation so you'll get frustrated. Finally you may just give up.

We are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. We are either children of the devil or children of God. We are either children of darkness or children of the light. We are either under the law or under grace. We are either dead to sin or alive to Christ. The list goes on and on. You're either one or the other. You cannot lose your salvation because it is depended on God and He has sealed us with the Holy Spirit just as He sealed the ark against the rain.

It is disappointing that you feel a need to listen to the confused doctrine of Arminius who admitted he couldn't understand various passages of scripture. As for the verse in Hebrews 6, if one were to read the book of Hebrews in context, they will find it is an evangelistic call to the Jews (hence the name "Hebrews"). The Jews have tasted of all the sweet things of God. They have the laws and traditions. They cannot be enlightened to the truth again if they reject the call of Christ (just as no one can). It is an evagelistic call-not that one can fall away from the faith.

And before I hear-"AH! HA! They can make a choice", please remember that we are suppose to "Preach like an Arminian but believe like a Calvinist." as Charles Spurgeon once stated. For the Jews that the Hebrew writer was addressing..."...and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." Those who were appointed to eternal life will believe. God will open up their ears and eyes.

I would suggest reading John MacArthur's commentary on Hebrew which does an excellent analysis of the book. Far better than Arminius.

[Cronos]

FK: "Your honor, my client is clearly innocent. As the evidence plainly shows, he never DISPENSED drugs to his customers, he merely OBTAINED drugs for his customers."

Paraphrasing "Your honor, my client is clearly innocent. As the evidence plainly shows, he never DISPENSED graces of eternal salvation to his customers, he merely OBTAINED graces of eternal salvation for his customers."

It still does work -- and yes, I guess you can say God's graces which are what saves us IS like a drug which we can never get enough of -- no human being can do without it, even Mary needed that grace for being saved.

And being a mother, she prays for our own salvation -- why would she pray for it if she could dispense it out?

[Cronos]

Md: You guys go ahead and practice your very edited sort of Sola Scriptura. We find Jesus promising to the Apostles that he will lead them into all truth, and we trust Him so much that we trust him even when the successors to the Apostles and the priests they ordain act like bozos.

Eck: Why would anyone follow a "bozo," especially if you believe that "bozo" is being "led into all truth?"

Because we follow Jesus and trust HIM, we are not a man-led religion, dependent on the teachings of our local "pastor" or "preacher".

Our leader is Christ.

[Cronos]

However, most Catholics I know act like the Catholics here...

you mean they have gotten so fed up of false accusations of what Catholics believe and they rigourously defend The Church?

you know what's strange -- I was a very luke-warm Catholic until I started looking into the FR religious forum. When I started seeing all the accusations made about The Church, I looked up, read The Bible in more depth again and again and found those accusations false. Then I saw posters post things like "And this in the face of the fact that worldwide there are people who are demon-possessed, worshippers of unclean things still standing at the front of altars controlled by the “SEE”, opening their mouths and having something called “His Body” put in their mouths every Sunday morning." and things that say that the Pope is a Nazi and things that are from blogs portrayed as Church websites and I asked myself "why do they attack The Church with:
1. incorrect statements
2.Statements, links etc. that can be easily verified as false

And I realised that they have either been misled by their teachers (which is the overwhelming majority of the cases, I believe) or they are there to make Catholics stronger in their faith.

So posters like Quix, Dr. Eckleburg; Iscool, etc. have actually made us Catholics stronger in our beliefs as you have pointed out how true our beliefs ARE (by your posts which supposedly say what our beliefs are, but are incorrect and force us to learn more about our faith) and have shown us how The Church is guided by God.

And Catholics outside this website are now learning more about what They believe and are no longer being led astray by Jimmy Swaggert-esque bouffants, but KNOW the little lies (like "Easter" supposedly being related to 'Eostre' -- completely forgetting that in other languages, like Polish, it isn't called Easter, but "Great Night" or Pascha) that are used to led people away from The Church.

We also KNOW that our beliefs are not man-made. If a historical Pope was bad, or some priests were bad that doesn't have an impact on The Church, on our beliefs or doctrine. In contrast, any mega-c crumbles when the errors of it's "preacher" are pointed out -- because THAT is man-made.

The attacks on Christ's bride, have only made Her stronger.

So, in conclusion, you seem to be an instrument that is strengthening the beliefs of Catholics in this little small part of the world that is the FR religion forum.

[Judith Anne]

Cronos, I agree strongly. Nothing that the anti-Catholics here have done, has harmed my faith. I am more secure in my Church than I was before encountering FR’s anti-Catholics, and I thank the Lord Almighty for sending them here to push me into becoming a better Catholic than I was before.

Heh.

[Cronos]

I mean, for example, we settled the Trinity in a few centuries. Nograyzone, not trusting the Spirit to instruct the Church as Scriptures say it does, starts the whole thing de novo. He is currently reproducing a version of the Arian heresy. I cannot imagine which of the several Christological heresies will eat up his time if he works through to the correct answer on the Trinity.

True -- NGZ, you are explicitly repeating an early Christological heresy. Initially I thought you were talking about adoptionism, and now you seem to veer towards Arius.

MD -- in fairness to NGZ, if one does not accept basic statements (the 0th law of thermodynamics), it makes the advanced corollaries impossible. NGZ, in a way is working his knowledge of Christ forward -- at least he is open to learning more.

[Forest Keeper]

Now THAT'S what I call a quality rant. :) It was a pleasure to read.