Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
Yes, the ones on this post that seem to call themselve Protestants (though they aren’t, and are barely Christian) seem to like repeating lies.
AG: I note that under the Office of the Keys, a pastor of a congregation has responsibilities before God that the average parishioner does not. As the Stewart of the Lord’s Supper, he is also responsible to Host for the proper manner and care for the people who partake of it.
As I am not a mind-reader, before I begin with this illustrious group, I must make some doctrinal points so you all can see from whence I come:
1. The Lord’s Supper has two visible elements and two Invisible ones. The Invisible Ones are the Body and Blood of Christ. They get there by the power of God’s Word via the Words of Institution. So with the bread and wine (and it IS wine) we receive the Body and Blood of Christ when we commune at a denominational altar. That is what we believe and confess.
2. “The Lutheran church rejects and condemns incorrect understandings of the Lord’s Supper, such as the view that the sacrifice of the Mass delivers man from his sins, or that the substance of the consecrated bread and wine is actually changed into the body and blood of Christ. We also reject and condemn the view that in the Lord’s Supper the true body and blood of Christ is not received by the mouth of the communicants, under the bread and wine, but is received only spiritually in the heart by faith, or that the bread and wine are only symbols of the far-distant body and blood of our Lord.”
(http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:h3EwHN40pUQJ:www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/wa_fellowship-lordssupper.pdf+close+communion&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiHRdANOnqtoNm63yp8RfCEOaez8BrQ46X1Sbx1pL-zMQjxN14kDe7ecKUCOThHt7lPWxaTHhVXJKFPIxmB7A_c1KMGLD_Rz3TatgiWWd0tq-CKBBXT839aA7tgZswY48c2EwtU&sig=AHIEtbRfcyt6l5VCFqPw8NWwdtDlikrxew)
3. In the Lord’s Supper we proclaim ourselves in the common confession of the Christian faith. “As the hymn writer says ‘one in hope and doctrine, one in charity.’”
The Lord’s Supper is a sacrament that looks ‘upward and outward’ as the Cross of Christ does, communion with our Lord and communion with our fellow Christians, a common confession of faith. Therefore when you commune you are affirming the doctrines of those participating with you. If you disagree with those doctrines or don’t understand them, you should seek clarification with a responsible doctrinal authority like the pastor or the priest.
I conclude with this cut and paste link: http://www.lcmsdistricts.org/graphics/assets/media/Minnesota%20North/sevenmyths.pdf
(if one of you could give me the cliff notes on the posting of live links I’d appreciate it.) The last footnote is instructive lest I be accused of denominationalism.
The Peace of the Lord be with you always.
Or, perhaps, one should learn how to pray.
ABSOLUTELY! INDEED. THANKS. GREAT BIBLICAL, SPIRITUAL PRINCIPLES, FOR SURE. VERY CRUCIAL ONES.
It's long been a fascinating . . . topic of observation and thought, to me . . . what sorts of persons are great at EMPATHY . . . really gifted at putting themselves in someone else's skin--a Grace from God, I believe--and what sorts of persons are the opposite. It's quite an interesting topic.
It has come to my attention that some on this thread suffer from Asthma. The following may be of help. [of course the Navy and font face are Qx's]
ASTHMA
In the case of asthma there is stiffening of the cell walls of the alveoli. This causes an entrapment of carbon dioxide and an exclusion of oxygen. Thus you have breathing problems and find yourself gasping for air.
The inhalant medication given by a physician is a neurological blocker which basically short-circuits the process and allows a relaxation of those cell walls. The carbon dioxide is then released, and oxygen starts to be absorbed. You begin to breathe normally. Those are the mechanisms of what happens when drug therapy is applied to the problem. The process of osmosis or diffusion is normalized.
We have known for many years that asthma is a fear-anxiety manifestation. It can be inherited. There can be a genetic component. We have observed from medical journals that the hypothalamus gland, when it senses fear and anxiety, causes a hormone called ACTH to be secreted. This hormone goes into the bloodstream and docks at a receptor cell in the alveoli. This produces the stiffening.
Asthma is one of the fastest growing childhood diseases in America. I’ve known the root problem of asthma FOR OVER A DECADE. When I taught it,, people would look at me and laugh. “Well, that’s not what the medical community says. You are out to lunch.” I might be out to lunch but many people are well. Now the medical community is agreeing with me.
The findings from research of the Johns Hopkins University Research Team, in the fall of 1996 confirmed our spiritual diagnosis of asthma, and that changed the conventional wisdom concerning asthma for the past 50 years. You’ve been taught that many asthmatic attacks are a response to an exposure to allergens, irritants, pollen, dust and danders—things that you take into your respiratory system through breathing.
Johns Hopkins University research has conclusively proven that nothing you breathe causes an asthmatic attack. Something is happening in the lungs, in the alveoli, that is causing stiffening, an entrapment of carbon dioxide and an exclusion of oxygen. Thus we see the respiratory difficulty, the gasping for air and all that goes with the drama of the situation.
Usually the type of fear and anxiety that produces asthma has to do with great fear concerning relationships. We have ministered to many people who no longer have asthma Johns Hopkins University is still trying to figure out what this invisible reality is that triggers the stiffening. I’ll tell you what it is--a spirit of fear--and it is able to control your physiology through the hypothalamus. [Qx added bold]
pE18 [testimonial appendix]
“I am completely 100% cured of very severe asthma. I no longer need the three inhalers and nebulizer I had to use every day. . . . “
p. E65 begins a several page incredible case of multiple serious illnesses being healed.
Anyway—his website is:
We are commanded by God not to construct statues and bow down before them and pray to them, regardless whether we think we are bowing down to the wooden tree itself or to the person that dead tree represents.
Men are admonished by God not to do either. We are to kneel to and pray to none but the Triune God. Period. Rome stubbornly defies the word of God yet again.
He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire: And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god. They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand. And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree? He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?" -- Isaiah 44:15-20"Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.
Apparently not.
Rome makes the pagan error of thinking others can "deliver his soul" when Christ alone is the only one who "delivers" His sheep to God as acquitted of their sins by the covering of His merciful righteousness.
No one else.
But here's a first-up on google of various Roman Catholic prayers to Mary, and in them once again we see Roman Catholics do not know "there is a lie in their right hand."
"Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin Mary, my Mother, I - the most miserable of all sinners - have recourse to you today, the Mother of my Lord. I venerate you, O great Queen, and thank you for all the graces you have obtained for me, especially for having delivered me from hell, which I have so often deserved..."
Not only is that total heresy, it sounds eerily similar to another FReeper's tag.
Wake up and read your Bible. Flee from idolatry.
It would be funny if it weren’t so sad the hypocrisy of a Romanist complaining about you directing spirits when they have institutionalized the pagan practice of directing spirits through their doctrine of ex opere operato.
The duplicity never ends.
You will, of course, notice that you weren't addressed in Post #688.
The reason for that, my dear brother in Christ, is that I already know your opinion on that issue and don't need to hear it again (and again and again and again)
Don't think of that as disrespect, because you will recall posts where I do ping you.
I am interested in your opinion on some questions of Biblical Hermeneutics. I am also interested in your opinion on some questions on Soteriology and, of course, Pneumatology. And, naturally, I am interested in your opinion on Eschatology. I reserve the right to agree or not, of course, but I am interested in your opinion on those areas. And, along with that, I know you have an interest in conspiracies, extraterrestrials, and general astronomical issues, so I make a special effort to ping you when I see a thread I think you might be interested in on those subjects (because I think you would be interested in the thread).
But on matters of Ecclesiology, I already know we don't agree and I know that your opinion, by default, is to condemn all religious institutions, particularly and especially with particular venom, the Catholic Church (specifically referring to the common usage that is: the collection of particular Churches (ecclesial communities with valid apostolic succession) whose bishops are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome...as opposed to the more technically correct definition of particular Churches (see above for a qualifier on that) without distinction as to their communion with the Bishop of Rome). I know that. You know that. The people you pinged know that. In fact, I would be shocked and surprised if anybody who has posted to the Religion Forum (as well as a huge subset of FReepers in general) is not very familiar with your position on that issue in particular.
The point is, my friend, I fail to see why you feel compelled to post your opinion on the matter, usually using the same words, largely pinging the same group of people, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
For the most part, the people you ping are your "Amen Corner." They don't need to be reminded about your opinion on the Catholic Church...they are going to agree with you (both you and I know about it). The subset of Catholics (see above for my working definition) you ping are, in general, not edified by the constant reminders of your disapproval.
You don't benefit lurkers or others with your posts on this subject. Unlike our dear sister Alamo-Girl, you don't generally provide Scriptural, Conciliar, Patristic, or any other valid reference to substantiate your statements (thus, they are the word of Quix, nothing more). Her posts are interesting not only because they contain her opinion, but because she always makes sure to back her assertions up with the Scriptures and she always is careful to write in a fashion to convey the agape she has in her heart.
Quix, please take this as a suggestion. You have got a HUGE amount to contribute to the Body of Christ and to FReeper community. I think you've got a great heart. But this constant repetition on the same subject is a constant distraction. Frankly, it hardens the hearts of your detractors who then bypass what you say on ANY subject, when its likely they could get a lot of good out of much of what you have to say.
Having said all of the above, if you would like to provide me some Scriptural documentation to back up your assertions on the subject of Ecclesiology, I would be thrilled to read that documentation and to respond to it. But take the time to back your statements up with Scripture. Although I am confident that neither you nor I will be likely to change our opinions, I always endeavor to be meek to the Scriptures and am not so arrogant as to not be subject to correction by those Scriptures. I am equally confident that you share that attitude.
AGREED.
Amazing that such a different perspective on their own schizophrenic docs can even be had by rational folks.
Amazing.
The duplicity never ends.
It’s one thing when it’s the common human frailty variety . . .
but such horrendous duplicity on such a grand scale . . . denied so wholesale . . . boggles the mind.
I’ve attended Lutheran LCMS churches and have refrained from the table because I do not agree with their doctrine of the Lord’s Supper.
I also appreciate that they would want to prevent me from partaking, not out of malice, but because they sincerely believe that partaking in the wrong manner could bring condemnation upon me. That to me seems a loving approach.
I certainly would never take communion at a Romanist Mass because that is clearly idolatry.
While I obviously disagree with you regarding the LCMS doctrine I applaud your discernment in the matter. If you are not in agreement, you should not commune. As is outlined in the second link, did the congregation make an effort to draw you out on this or to welcome you to learn more?
Free Republic is ostensibly a forum dedicated to the preservation of the ideals that founded this country. That being the case, the hierarchy should reflect those religions that directly conceived those ideals.
A hearty "Amen!" to that statement!
So Alex, are you thus advocating that only Calvinism should be discussed on this forum? Perhaps only Calvinists should be accepted for membership on this forum, as well? (They might accept others on suffrage, as long as they keep their religion to themselves, of course)
That's what that sounds like you're advocating, to me. I would just like to make sure I'm not misreading you.
Been too busy to answer recently Alex?
1 Cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
And when one partakes of "that one bread", one is admonished to discern it properly, with all that attends that idea. And certainly there is a disagreement how "that bread" is discerned in Communion.
I will prayerfully ponder your thoughtful post.
Thanks for your kind words. There were some! LOL.
1. Re the AMEN CORNER so to speak:
It’s amazing that any RC’s, VA’s FOYF would dare to even comment on such a thing given the seemingly compulsive pinging of the 12-36 finger frothing rabid FOYF plus the not so rabid folks. And given the eagle eyes for any slight hint on any poster’s part that the Vatican Edifice is being described as less than perfect, y’all mostly don’t need to ping each other anyway. The vultures descend en masse on Protty posts routinely out of habit.
Having been emotionally detached if not brutalized by family . . . I’ve never really felt I had a family. Lots of folks have been in worse states on such matters. But that’s my existential, emotional reality in my inner world.
That probably began the habit of gathering whatever folks I could—who’d tolerate it—and/or better—agree in Christian love to fill such a role—IRON SHARPENING IRON clusters to give me their perspective on my Christian walk and living such out in the world.
Throw in 3,000+ hours of intense group experience . . . I love having folks look over my shoulders and comment whether publically or privately . . . in iron sharpening iron sorts of ways.
Sure, that cluster of folks are likely to agree on one or more points but not as much as you might think. There are a chunk of Calvinists therein, after all! And, not everyone agrees with my presentation of myself nor with my specifics of various points of perspectives about various topics. However, I appreciate that they are all able to be candid with me in a caring way—most of the time.
And, I think we share enough of the same sense of humor about the topics . . . a lot of time I don’t want them to miss out on the humor or the irony or the paradox or the satire or whatever some such.
You will note that they rarely chime in—at least percentage wise. They may not even read my pings given their abundance. I assume their scroll buttons work well or I wouldn’t dare ping them so much.
2. Repetition . . . I don’t think ANY FOYF [Folks of Your Flavor] have a leg to stand on in complaining to ME about repetition. Sheesh. There are about 2-3 DOZEN of FOYF who are exceedingly redundant and repetitious year after year after year and some in the most shrill and obnoxious terems repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly . . . did I say repeatedly?
However, you may have failed to notice that I’ve consciously lessened such compared to what I once would have engaged in. I may lessen it more. I don’t know. I certainly will likely continue to hit some issues and points hard repeatedly because that’s what the stimulus on the other side seems to most require, even !!!!DEMAND!!!!
Certainly there is wisdom in trying to balance between
the important educational principle of much repetition
vs
harping on a matter separates even friends.
It’s even more tricky trying to factor in whatever percentage of new lurkers might be around.
3. Scriptural support. I frequently use phrases from Scripture. I’d guess in more than 95% of posts of several lines or more I’ll use some Scriptural phrase—as I just did above about harping on a matter.
The net has plentiful capacities to look references up. Sometimes I do and post them. Most of the time, I don’t. I know that folks can look them up well enough on their own. And supposedly the folks on these threads who are so vociferous . . . in their presumed Biblical views . . . would recognize the verses the phrases come from anyway.
CERTAINLY GOD KNOWS.
In the teaching context I function in, more Scripture gets inside noggins because it’s NOT labeled such than would ever be allowed were it labeled such.
I think that’s also true on the net.
I’ll not likely change that strategy.
In terms of the Ecclesiology request . . . please give me 3-5 specific questions. I’ll do much better with that.
Thx in advance.
Yes, the Pastor and I had some conversations and he knew that I came from a Reformed background so he understood. We never got into any indepth discussions.
I eventually partnered with a Memoralist church that, though I disagree with their thinking on the Lord’s Supper, I happiliy partake.
I think there is a huge difference in partaking with a church that believes communion to be a true sacrament and one that believes it to be merely a rememberance. If a church believes communion to be a true sacrament one ought to think twice about what they are participating in and the ramifications of that participation. I think here of Paul’s instruction that having sex with a prostitute is essentially being married to a prostitute (This is to be taken as a metaphor not that I’m claiming the LCMS is equal to a prostitute). For those churches that believe it is merely a remembrance I think one can still participate even if he believes it to be a true sacrament because I believe one receives the Sacrament by faith even if the other participants do not.
I would have been happy to continue with the LCMS church but it was that one issue that lead me to find another church to affiliate with.
OK, here's a few to get started: Premise: We all know that you don't believe that how the Catholic Church is organized is Scriptural (due to the repeated references to the "institution"). So the following questions cover how the Church should be organized:
Might be more from that point, but I think those three are a good start.
BTW, I pinged our good friend Mad Dawg to this, as I think he would have some really good insights, as a current Catholic and former Episcopal clergyman.
(FOYF? wuzza?)
Count it all gain Quixie Dixie
Psalm 27:10
When my father and my mother forsake me, Then the Lord will take me up.
I read it all plus footnotes.
In answer to your question, to make a hot link of a url, begin by typing a “<” followed by the phrase “A HREF=” and then the url. And then add a “>” to close the expression and type in a title or description and finish it all with “<” followed by a “/A” and a “>”. Obviously I am separating these terms so that they aren’t interpreted as an HTML command in this reply.
Back to the pdf which acknowledges the invisible church and the physical inability to distinguish it from the visible church. Which is to say, for exclusion under close communion, the doctrine discerns physically by the physical confession of physical lips.
And so the exclusion for the Lutheran confession is a physical matter, not a spiritual one. The doctrine does not claim Spiritual discernment.
My understanding of the doctrine is improved and I thank you! However, my position is unchanged because "common union" is a Spiritual matter (which the Lutheran confession recognizes) and the Spirit discerns.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9
Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? – Matthew 20:15
And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common. – Acts 10:15
2. Repetition . . . I don’t think ANY FOYF [Folks of Your Flavor] (Hey, Mad Dawg, there's your acronym definition...and I thought you were taking a nap!!!) have a leg to stand on in complaining to ME about repetition. Sheesh. There are about 2-3 DOZEN of FOYF who are exceedingly redundant and repetitious year after year after year and some in the most shrill and obnoxious terems repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly . . . did I say repeatedly?
I agree that posts that consist of nothing other than 3,265 links to other FR threads or other websites, without any explanatory content, are not beneficial (maybe one in a thousand might click on something, but more than likely not).
And it is true that it starts to get to be a lot of "you did", "no I didn't," "did," "didn't," "did," "didn't," "did," "didn't," "did," "didn't," "did," "didn't," "did," "didn't," "did," "didn't," -- but it really works both ways. (And, no, I haven't seen you involved when it denigrates down to that level)
The discourse could be a whole lot better on all sides.
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