Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[MarkBsnr]

Read the link. Her comments about Mary were exactly what we hear from Roman Catholics on this forum.

Which Roman Catholics? And on which points do they agree?

Apparently Roman Catholic teaching on Mary is uncomfortably similar to new-age mysticism.

The writings of neo pagan pseudo Jewish mystics are sufficient to convince you that Roman Catholic teachings on Mary are uncomfortably similar to new-age mysticism? Fascinating. Shall I enquire in depth with my cat regarding the accuracy and theological worth of Reformed thought?

No surprise. All superstition is a lie.

Exactly. Therefore I expect your rather spectacular repudiation of Calvinism and embrace of Catholicism to be imminent. Will you give us a hint as to the form of announcement that it will take? I for one, will be waiting with bated breath and with the greatest and most sincere congratulations.

[MarkBsnr]

The assumption made is wrong -- the Vatican does not "sanction" or "authorize" blogs of the various lay groups of Christians worldwide

Proof, please?

The proof is in the positive, not the negative. Which blog of a lay group is authorized by the Vatican?

[annalex]

love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control

These are not passions. These are virtues.

Most, for example, self-control, peace, patience, gentleness and faithfulness are the opposite of passions. Some have a passion confused with it, for example, love has many meanings in addition to the virtue of charity. Joy as a passion, likewise, could be conceited and selfish, adn not at all a virtue. It is instructive that all of these are put in contrast to "sinfull passions" in Gal. 5.

The difference is, I think, that virtues are modalities of power and truth. It takes strength, for example, to be patient. It takes knowledge to be charitable. A passion is a lack of power, it is not anchored in truth, it means a submission to instinct. See:

you, brethren, have been called unto liberty

...

the flesh lusteth against the spirit: and the spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary one to another: so that you do not the things that you would. But if you are led by the spirit, you are not under the law. (Gal. 5)

he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ; 14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. 15 But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ

...

henceforward you walk not as also the Gentiles walk in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their hearts. 19 Who despairing, have given themselves up to lasciviousness, unto the working of all uncleanness, unto the working of all uncleanness, unto covetousness. 20 But you have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that you have heard him, and have been taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 To put off, according to former conversation, the old man, who is corrupted according to the desire of error. 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind: 24 And put on the new man, who according to God is created in justice and holiness of truth.

(Eph. 4)

The Fall left us with weakened will, darkened intellect, confused instinct. Christ leads us out of bondage by giving us strength to attain virtues. This is a process: there is some overlap in a living man where a passion is harnessed to feed the virtue. It is sometime difficult to tell which is which. But in the end, we want virtues to win, and passions to lose.

[Petronski]

I prefer my favorite local spiced sparkling barley wine, ice cold.

Just as soon as I finish demoing this bit of wall.

[Forest Keeper]

But what about the person who has “ears to hear” and hears the words of God (His sheep cannot resist hearing Him) - but then willfully rejects them?

I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. – John 12:45-50

In my effort to save POTS, this one is not so difficult. We can just say that those who "hear my words" but don't believe were just among the crowds that physically heard Him (and other non-believers to whom He spoke face to face), but were not among the elect as they never truly believed. They were not among the sheep given by the Father to Christ because none of those would be lost. However:

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? – Hebrews 10:26-29

The word “wilfully” in the passage from Hebrew 10:26 speaks loudly to me. For a person to be guilty of despite to the Spirit of grace, he must first of all know better and then willfully reject Him. Such a one would be rejecting the Spirit because the words of God are spirit and life.

As you indicate, this presents more of a problem. Hmmm. For more context, let's throw in:

Heb. 10:35-36 : 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

To me, the presentation here is that of a choice, "do not choose to throw away your salvation which you already have by faith". So, I assume that these people really are the sheep. POTS is destroyed. However, we are faced with a huge problem in that God promises He will lose none of His sheep:

John 10:25-30 : 25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Eph. 1:13-14 : 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

So, how do we put all this together? One way would be to say that the Hebrews verses are to encourage the correct attitude through an impossible example. It would be a way to say that even though God will protect you from losing your salvation, by no means rest on your laurels. Your attitude should always be toward Christ and loving and obeying Him. IOW, DON'T test God's promise to keep you in His hands.

In other words, I believe this warning would apply to those who have “ears to hear.”

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come. – Matthew 12:31-32

I suspect there may be here a doctrinal issue concerning irresistible grace. If so, I'll bow out of the sidebar. I just wanted to present the words of God as I - a Christian plain and simple - have received them.

And thank you so much for doing so. Please don't ever bow out. I always want to hear what you think. :) Here the main doctrinal issue for me is saving POTS. I suppose I am more persuaded that when God says "no one" shall be snatched from His hands, He means "NO ONE", including us snatching ourselves out of His hands. I have never been able to justify that posited exception in my mind. And likewise I am persuaded that a seal is a seal and a guaranteed inheritance is a guaranteed inheritance. But, it's an interesting debate.

[HarleyD]

At its core, faith is two-way - someone needs to trust someone else.

So, you're saying that man creates faith, is that correct? According to the London Baptist Confession of Faith this is not so:

Touching his Kingdom,75 Christ being risen from the dead, ascended into heaven, sat on the right hand of God the Father, having all power in heaven and earth, given unto him, he doth spiritually govern his Church, exercising his power76 over all Angels and Men, good and bad, to the preservation and salvation of the elect, to the overruling and destruction of his enemies, which are Reprobates,77 communicating and applying the benefits, virtue, and fruit of his Prophesy and Priesthood to his elect, namely, to the subduing and taking away of their sins, to their justification and adoption of Sons, regeneration, sanctification, preservation and strengthening in all their conflicts against Satan, the World, the Flesh, and the temptations of them, continually dwelling in, governing and keeping their hearts in faith and filial fear by his Spirit, which having78 given it, he never takes away from them, but by it still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all heavenly light in the soul unto immortality, notwithstanding through our own unbelief, and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of this light and love be clouded and overwhelmed for the time.79 And on the contrary, ruling in the world over his enemies, Satan, and all the vessels of wrath, limiting, using, restraining them by his mighty power, as seems good in his divine wisdom and justice to the execution of his determinate counsel, delivering them up to a reprobate mind, to be kept through their own deserts, in darkness and sensuality unto judgment.

XXII. That Faith is the84 gift of God wrought in the hearts of the elect by the Spirit of God, whereby they come to see, know, and believe the truth of85 the Scriptures, and not only so, but the excellency of them above all other writings and things in the world, as they hold forth the glory of God in his attributes, the excellency of Christ in his nature and offices, and the power of the fullness of the Spirit in its workings and operations; and thereupon are enabled to cast the weight of their souls upon this truth thus believed.

London Baptist Confession of 1644

The problem you will find in your interpretation is that IF faith is generated on your part and must be maintained on your part, then can't you lose your salvation?

HD “Since you’re quoting Barnes, here is what he has to say on John 1:12-13”

Mr. R-Yes, Barnes is a Calvinist. I am not. However, I often quote Calvin, for many things he taught were good. Barnes is probably my favorite commentary, but he is a man.

Heck, I didn't know that Barnes was a Calvinist. I knew that he wrote a decent commentary. I was going to post Matthew Henry but thought I would use Barnes since you quoted from Barnes.

You will find many of the very good commentary of old WERE Calvinists simply because THIS WAS the teaching of the Protestant church. Protestants simply don't understand this free will doctrine is a Catholic doctrine-not a Protestant doctrine. Doesn't it make you wonder why you find so many Catholics agreeing with you?

And the commentary he wrote there agrees with me, although he may not have meant it to:... 2nd. God gave them this privilege. It is not by their own works or deserts; it is because God chose to impart this blessing to them, Ephesians 2:8; John 15:16.”

I fail to see how Barnes agrees that both you and God give yourself faith. Rather it appears that "God chose to impart this blessing to them".

Therefore, everything we have is ours solely because of God’s initiative. It comes from him, not us. But it requires us as well....

Then what you're saying is that WE must do something. We must work for something.

[Petronski]

...this free will doctrine is a Catholic doctrine-not a Protestant doctrine. Doesn't it make you wonder why you find so many Catholics agreeing with you?

Why...if a Catholic agrees with you that's proof enough that you're wrong!

[cue SPOOKY MUSIC]

[MarkBsnr]

I suppose I am more persuaded that when God says "no one" shall be snatched from His hands, He means "NO ONE", including us snatching ourselves out of His hands. I have never been able to justify that posited exception in my mind. And likewise I am persuaded that a seal is a seal and a guaranteed inheritance is a guaranteed inheritance.

How can you snatch yourself? You can just walk.

And what is a seal in your theological position? The seal of Biblical times is a wax blob imprinted with the signet (signature) ring of the ruler or writer of a letter. That ensures that the letter as written was genuine when given to the recipient.

IOW, DON'T test God's promise to keep you in His hands.

We'll convert you to Catholicism yet, my friend...

[HarleyD]

I'm not sure if this was your point or not, but do you then say that Adam used his free will and that we have our free will to choose or not choose God's grace?

You've inserted the word "free" in my text. Man does NOT have a "free" will. Man has a will. A very subtle but important difference. Please note what I said:

Adam was the ONLY one who could will himself against God.

And, yes, Adam did will himself against God. Was Adam "free" not to fall? Well considering that God planted the tree in the garden and knew what the outcome would be, what do you think?

God gave man one commandment. Man, in his perfection, couldn't even keep one commandment with all of paradise at his feet. That is the whole point of the tree.

[MarkBsnr]

You will find many of the very good commentary of old WERE Calvinists simply because THIS WAS the teaching of the Protestant church.

Negative. The Protestant Church (if there was such a thing) was much more aligned to Luther and then Zwingli. Calvin came later, and his acolyte Knox after that. Calvinism was never more than a significant minority in Protestant theology and after reaching its zenith in the late 1800s, has been in decline ever since. If one considers it as a percentage of non Catholic Christianity, the slope is getting pretty steep right now.

Then what you're saying is that WE must do something. We must work for something.

There is no Reformed limousine ride. You must jettison all of Matthew, Luke, and most of Mark and John as well in order to believe that there is.

[HarleyD]

What a beautiful testimony. I am reminded of the following story:

Joh 21:5-10 Jesus said to them, "Children, do you have any fish?" They answered him, "No." He said to them, "Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some." So they cast it, and now they were not able to haul it in, because of the quantity of fish. That disciple whom Jesus loved therefore said to Peter, "It is the Lord!" When Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on his outer garment, for he was stripped for work, and threw himself into the sea. The other disciples came in the boat, dragging the net full of fish, for they were not far from the land, but about a hundred yards off. When they got out on land, they saw a charcoal fire in place, with fish laid out on it, and bread. Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish that you have just caught."

The disciples were responsible for catching the fish but would it have occurred without Christ?

[MarkBsnr]

Most folks feel that way about their anal.

Depends on if it's in San Francisco.

[HarleyD]

Is this to say that Catholicism is HUMOROUS? :)

Is there a 1,001 Jokes of the Catholic Church? I'm sure it's in the Vatican somewhere. Probably lying around in one of the 14,000 bathrooms. ;O)

[HarleyD]

You’re saying that you know the secret counsel of God in the doctrine of election and God support free will because it sounds right. We’re saying that you can’t know the secret counsel of God in the matter of election but there are other verses that are at odds with the free will doctrine.

[MarkBsnr]

Adam was the ONLY one who could will himself against God.

And, yes, Adam did will himself against God. Was Adam "free" not to fall? Well considering that God planted the tree in the garden and knew what the outcome would be, what do you think?

God gave man one commandment. Man, in his perfection, couldn't even keep one commandment with all of paradise at his feet. That is the whole point of the tree.

Let us not forget the angels. They had free will and 1/3 of them rebelled and were swept from the sky. Like Adam, the angels were made sinless, yet not divine. A lot of folks get the two mixed up. Foreknowledge is not predestination.

[HarleyD]

What is your personal interpretation of exactly which version of the hundreds of different books available was selected for inclusion in the NT?

I'll stick with the early church Gentile and Jewish father selection. You can keep the Council of Trent 1500 year later selection.

[MarkBsnr]

I'll stick with the early church Gentile and Jewish father selection. You can keep the Council of Trent 1500 year later selection.

Spare me the Council of Trent epithet. Let us look to the 300s, not the 1500s and the confirmation of Scripture then.

Which Jewish fathers? And why? Which do you agree with and do you acknowledge the Council of Jamnia's repudiation of Christianity?

Which early Church Gentile fathers? And why? How did the Scriptures get chosen? Which version of which books were used and why?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I've "skipped" no Scripture, Mr. R., just your inept usage of it and your repetitive complaint that Calvinists don't believe a man has to repent and believe in order to be saved.

For the umpteenth time, men must repent, obey, and believe in Christ in order to avoid the eternal condemnation that awaits all who know not Christ as God.

The point you miss, the point of the Reformation, the point where you and Rome have kissed and made up is that NO MAN can or will even want to repent, obey or believe unless and until God decides to first regenerate his fallen, God-denying nature by the work of the Holy Spirit.

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch" -- Matthew 15:13-14

Continue to tell us you planted yourself. Time and fruit will tell.

but you insist that faith is "work".

Thanks for the compliment, but the words are not mine but Paul's...

"Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father" -- 1 Thess. 1:3

I also note you habitually lay off "inconvenient" verses to the fact they were said to the Jews (and therefore not applicable to all of us.)

That's the papacy's method of handling all Scripture that contradicts its erroneous doctrines.

You're following the wrong music; a big ditch waits right around the bend.

[xzins]

As much as I like and respect you, Harley, and I do, I’m saying that I’m not convinced you’ve got the scripture right.

It makes sense, therefore, to continue the search.

Not personal. Just business. :>)

[MarkBsnr]

I prefer my favorite local spiced sparkling barley wine, ice cold.

That's okay; to each his own. Barley to me comes in the form of beer or Scotch...

Just as soon as I finish demoing this bit of wall.

Nice. Any pictures? You wouldn't have any representation of any personalities on that wall as you're swinging the hammer...