Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
Not about Branch Davidians. They are/were(?) clearly Restorationists, just like their other Millerite cousins (though not part of the Stone-Campbell Restorationist movement)
The mega-churches I think would fall under the Evangelical label, but it depends upon the core doctrines of that mega-Church (for example, I think the Crystal Cathedral would be more of a Methodist type...which would be a traditional Protestant background)
I think he’s taken sola interpretura to it’s logical conclusion — anything, including “The Golden Compass” and Dan Brown trash is accurate for Calwinos as long as it is anti-Church
The question is whether the brother is a brother. Or at least, a “brother in Christ.” There isn't much evidence on these threads for that assertion, and there is evidence against it.
The thing about the charismatic movement is that those who embrace it open themselves up to the Holy Spirit. But in doing that, they can also open themselves up to other spirits. In the Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church, fortunately, there are many sound spiritual directors who hew closely and faithfully to the teachings of Holy Mother Church, and to Her God-given, Holy Spirit-protecting Authority.
When I was an active charismatic, I saw more than a few souls saved from shipwreck because of the strength of leadership of folks like this. Maybe I was one of those saved souls on an occasion or two (or three).
But I also saw more than one person open themselves up to New Age occultic practices similar to “bible-code” and “UFOlogy” stuff. In some cases, these persons, baptized and still mentioning the name of the Lord Jesus on their lips, became apostates. Some day, I'll tell ya about the chick who was convinced that her recently-deceased father had come back as a Christmas poinsettia. Funny but sad.
In one case, an entire covenanted community went off the deep end, and the archbishop had to step in to set things aright.
The evidence in the posts of this poster don't really square with those of an orthodox Christian. The unrelieved lack of charity in these posts also doesn't suggest someone filled with the Holy Spirit.
Obviously, we're dealing with personae on the Internet, and we shouldn't come to any hard-and-fast diagnoses or conclusions about anyone.
In an analogous vein, although I formerly practiced psychotherapy, and the rantings and ravings of some suggest specific mental illnesses to me, especially some of the more... - "colorful" [yes, that's the right word] - rants and raves, nonetheless, I also follow a strict rule never to try to “diagnose” mental problems, illness, or disorders on-line in discussions like these, as it is foolhardy, as well as in violation of the ethics of my former profession.
Nonetheless, we should be wary of posters such as these, and assume the worst until it is ruled out. In this way, we guard our own souls from accepting the teachings of the devil.
sitetest
Truly, God permits man to certain things in worshiping Him. And such things are made sacred by His will, e.g. the burning bush, the Temple, the Ark of the Covenant, the Cup and the Bread.
But God does not "need" man - such concepts of necessity are illusions.
His presence, His dwelling is not physical. He cannot be contained (the broken cistern in Jeremiah 2:13)
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. - John 1:10
The earth [is] the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. - Psalms 24:1
Thus saith the LORD, The heaven [is] my throne, and the earth [is] my footstool: where [is] the house that ye build unto me? and where [is] the place of my rest? For all those [things] hath mine hand made, and all those [things] have been, saith the LORD: but to this [man] will I look, [even] to [him that is] poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. - Isaiah 66:1-2
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name [is] Holy; I dwell in the high and holy [place], with him also [that is] of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls [which] I have made. For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart. - Isaiah 57:15-17
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. - I John 4:13
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. - Revelation 21:3
They are not lies Bad Dog...The prayers from your Holy (cough) Saints reveal to us the workings of your religion...And it ain't pretty...
Most Holy Virgin! Who art the greatest consolation that I receive from God, thou who art the heavenly dew which assuages all my pains, thou who art the light of my soul when it is enveloped in darkness, thou who art my guide in unknown paths, the support of my weakness, my treasure in poverty, my remedy in sickness, my consolation in trouble, my refuge in misery, and the hope of my salvation, hear my supplications, have pity on me, as becomes the Mother of so good a God, and obtain for me a favourable reception of all my petitions at the throne of mercy. St. Germanus
Mary : our life, our sweetness, and our hope : in three parts principally taken from authorized works / by Bernard Widger Dublin : J. Duffy & Co., 1904 BX2160 .W54 1904, p. 188-9 You guys have attributed to the mother, the queen of heaven, those things that are available only from God by Jesus Christ...
God says your religion is wrong...But what does He know, eh??? He was over ruled by a Catholic council...
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Let's face it, your catechism is a lie...
“Since there can only be one Church, and that Church is Catholic, all those who are members of that Church, are by definition Catholics.”
We may not agree entirely here. How I'd phrase it, as a Catholic, is that everyone who is validly baptized in some way has a connection, some level of communion with the Catholic Church. However, many folks who are validly baptized don't have formal membership in the Catholic Church.
Clearly, someone baptized in a Baptist ecclesial assembly who accepts Baptist teaching doesn't have formal membership in the Catholic Church, even though the Catholic Church believes that that person has some level of communion - impaired though it may be - with the Catholic Church, which is the Church of Jesus Christ.
So, I'm not sure whether or not that's quite what the Orthodox believe. I've heard that at least some Orthodox re-baptize other Christians who come into the Orthodox Church, which of course is an explicit rejection of that person's connection in any way to the Church of Christ.
Second, I believe that both the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church hold to the belief that they, themselves, constitute the true Church, complete and without lack. Thus, the Orthodox believe that Orthodoxy is the true Church, and needs nothing else ontologically to be the true Church. I've read Orthodox posters post pretty much this same thing, and assume that it reflects accurately actual Orthodox teaching.
Similarly, we Catholic believe the same thing about our Church, that it is the true Church, founded by Jesus Christ, and lacking nothing ontologically.
What we believe about each other is also similar, I think.
We Catholics phrase it as follows: The Orthodox Church (or Churches) is not the true Church, but rather comprises true particular Churches of the true Church, but lacking complete communion with the true Church, which comprise those true particular Churches in communion with Peter. We believe that ontologically, something is missing from Orthodoxy.
Although the Orthodox don't center their test of communion around a single See as we do, the Orthodox basically believe the converse, I believe.
So we each lay claim to being the true Church, Catholic and Orthodox, one, holy, apostolic, but admit that the other have true particular Churches, even if they don't comprise ontologically the One Church.
Thus, although we each see the other as being in a greatly advantaged place from the unchurched “separated brethren” of various non-apostolic Christian ecclesial communities, we both hold positions that relegate the other to something less than in full communion to the one Church, Catholic and Orthodox.
As for the non-Romans in the Catholic Church, it's true that they represent a small number of folks. But it isn't a numbers game, is it? Otherwise, we have three or four times the numbers that you folks have, and thus, we win!! LOL. What a silly idea.
The fact is, the Catholic Church comprising all those particular Churches in communion with the See of Peter include non-Roman particular Catholic Churches.
Even though there aren't that many of them in comparison to actual Roman Catholics, one can't just wave them away and pretend that since they are few in number, they can be ignored, their patrimony dismissed.
The fact is that in the aggregate, these folks exceed in number several ancient Orthodox Churches. When you say 2%, one must remember that that's 2% of over a billion folks. Which is a couple of tens of millions. Of actual human beings. Often in particular Churches where the practice of the faith is far more vibrant, far more Catholic (even if of an eastern flavor), and with far higher levels of participation than in much of the rest of the Church, Catholic OR Orthodox.
Thus, the proper name for us as an entire group is Catholic.
We could say “Catholic and Orthodox,” and if we wished to press our claim against the Orthodox that we are the true Church and they are merely in true particular Churches, we could demand that they stop using the term “Orthodox” and call themselves Greek Christians, Russian Christians, Georgian Christians, etc., in communion with Constantinople.
But to do such a thing would be tendentious, mean, unnecessary, and most of all, stupid.
The fact is that we Catholics don't generally call ourselves “Catholic and Orthodox.” We generally understand that we're talking about the folks in communion with Constantinope when we talk about the Orthodox. Although we may say “Eastern Orthodox” rather than “Orthodox,” that is usually to distinguish from the Oriental Orthodox (ironic name, since “Oriental” is just another word for “Eastern”).
We don't begrudge the name “Orthodox” to these folks even though we believe that we lay claim to it, as well.
And at least in this country, Orthodox typically refer to themselves as “Orthodox” of one sort or another. And understand what is meant by “Catholic.”
In any event, all arguments that we should share caucus threads generally under the rubric of “Catholic” or otherwise ring hollow when leading Orthodox posters declare us all apostate bishop-worshippers. Even if I thought that you were correct in principle, I would oppose what you suggest because of the vitriol spewed forth and directed at us Catholics.
Practically speaking, here at FR, the Orthodox, whether they admit it or not, do not really consider us part of the true Church, regardless of what nice words they may post to cover up their libelous accusations of apostasy.
“Is there any wonder then that to the Orthodox any union with such aberrations seems undesirable or even some individuals in particular actually heretical. I mean, Pelosi argues that the Church was not always opposed to abortion. Is that ‘orthodox?’”
You mean like my former United States Senator, Paul Sarbanes, or my current United States Representative, John Sarbanes, both self-identified Orthodox Christians who each never met an abortion he didn't like, who respectively ran and currently run for office as completely pro-abortion politicians?
Sorry, kosta50, but in my view, the hierarchies of all our particular Churches haven't done what they ought to do. In my own area, both Messrs. Sarbanes have been celebrated by the local Orthodox churches as favorite Orthodox sons. Not a peep in the press about how these folks aren't very good Orthodox Christians because they oppose the fundamental right of all human beings to life.
At least I'm starting to hear peeps out of my own hierarchs at least disputing the idiocies of folks like Ms. Pelosi, if not disciplining them as I believe they should be disciplined. Perhaps they're saying it, too, but I haven't actually heard any public discussion from any Orthodox prelates of the pro-abort politics of Orthodox politicians.
sitetest
Did you ever read "Games People Play?" It's gosh, more than 40 years old, but it's still interesting in considering things like the religious wars on FR.
Thanks.
There are comparisons in Scripture. David is a man after God’s own heart. Few others are so described, if any, IIRC.
Paul dared to boast that he was chiefest of sinners. He praised a number of folks as being above average spiritually in various ways.
I think Scripture is slightly . . . on both sides of the comparison thing but mostly we are exhorted to
AVOID COMPARISONS of such a type.
Certainly it’s all Grace.
And, in my experience, the folks I most respect spiritually . . . and I know my own heart . . .
ANYTIME HOLY SPIRIT shows up and graces me in any way as a channel to any degree . . . IT’S EXTREMELY HUMBLING.
Let no flesh glory in His Presence.
And as far as group experiences . . . He seems to be extremely sensitive to attitude, humility. Doesn’t seem to take much of the wrong attitude and any great or marked PRESENCE of Holy Spirit will quickly lift, go.
I don’t know that there’s a hard fast criteria. He’s certainly in charge. Yet, that’s the general experience I’ve had and observed. Sometimes He seems more patient and gracious on such scores than others but generally He insists on proper attitutes, focus and humility.
I guess I'm really REALLY unwilling to say a brother is lost, qua brother. I certainly am open to the concept that I'm too squishy.
I'm gonna go get some advice on this: In the phrase "separated brethren", when is the separation so great that it cancels out the brethren part?
“I guess I'm really REALLY unwilling to say a brother is lost, qua brother. I certainly am open to the concept that I'm too squishy.”
I wouldn't say that ANYONE is lost. Not until they exhale their last breath, until the heart stops beating, until the moment of death is past. I hold out hope for everyone. God wishes ALL men to be saved, not just RCs [raving calvinists]. LOL.
“I'm gonna go get some advice on this: In the phrase ‘separated brethren’, when is the separation so great that it cancels out the brethren part?”
That's the relevant question.
Clearly, those who forthrightly adhere to religions that forthrightly reject following Jesus are not “separated brethren [in Christ].” But they make no claim to be.
The question comes with those who make the claim but for whom the evidence is, well.... spotty and possibly contradictory.
Nonetheless, although I hold in question the Christian identity of some of those herein who claim to be Christian, it'd be wrong to come to any conclusions based on Internet interactions.
That's why I made the anaology to the [lack of] ethics in attributing specific mental disorders to others on-line by alleged mental health professionals. It's just the wrong medium for making those sorts of judgments, and those who do, well, it calls into serious question their own discernment, no less decency.
I'm just saying that we shouldn't automatically accept that all who call themselves Christian herein are actually separated brethren. We should exercise a little caution so as not to be open to their false teachings.
sitetest
That blackwashing brush won’t paint.
And there are Scriptural consequences when folks willfully wield such brushes unfittingly.
We all reap what we sow.
I forcefully rebuke that falsehood and all related implications in the strongest terms and in the Precious Name of Jesus.
hmmm.... hysterical protests. Did this spirit (that was not the Holy Spirit) also tell you to do that?
I forcefully rebuke that falsehood and all related implications in the strongest terms and in the Precious Name of Jesus.
I gather your Bible doesn’t include much of the Old Testament and nothing about Ananias and Sapphira.
Fascinating.
Shredded Bibles indeed.
The best lies start with some truth and distort it.
I pray a rosary a day (almost). In it is the Salve Regina, from which the title of the book you cite is taken: Vita, dulcedo, et spes nostra = Our life, our sweetness, and our hope.
I also frequently pray the memorare a lot. (I hope you know Latin; the English translation is sappy, inaccurate, sappy, and icky -- and sappy.)
Yet, when I'm healthy enough to go to Mass every day. I still end up with the vast majority of my time devoted to our Lord -- explicitly so.
So I KNOW that they're lies, well, falsehoods at best. And, having been asked once to provide corroboration to my account of having seen something almost 50 years ago, I know that I won't be believed. That's okay, God saw and heard. -- Psalm 35:22
And the first time I saw the Salve Regina I though the whole thing was icky. Appearances can be deceiving and tastes change.
I remember telling here how I heard Trappists singing the Salve after bed time prayers one night and suddenly I "got" it.
Then one of the most poisonous of your side said she was confident that it was in a setting with incense and such. What she showed was ignorance of the austerity and simplicity of Trappists and their worship, but that's okay. When people take refuge in lies, sometimes the best thing to do is to wait until they realize they're trapped before offering to help.
Your assaultive judgments are noted in Heaven and on earth.
I think you are familiar with my conviction that the
VA’s/ RC’s et al’s
use of “C” Catholic is heretical to my understanding of Scripture.
I do not accept it to the least degree.
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