Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[Cronos]

The Old Testament was known by the Jews, and endorsed by Jesus Christ. In like manner, the early congregations knew God’s voice when they heard it.

AGain I deviate, but some early congregations also considered The Gospel of Thomas and others to be inspired and so too the preachings of Montanus (to which Tertullian succumbed).

Scripture itself does not say "by scripture alone"

[boatbums]

Men "receive" the gift of the Holy Spirit. Passive. They don't "accept" it. Active.

Therein is the difference between a works-based salvation and salvation by God's free, merciful gift of grace to whom He will.

I do not believe in a works-based salvation at all. Salvation most assuredly IS a gift from God. A gift by the very word implies grace which is unmerited favor. Tell me, though, how can you "receive" something you don't accept? My point was that people even back then knew what a "gift" was. What good is a gift that is not received or accepted? I know exactly what you are trying to say, but, forgive me, I don't, not won't, see it. Receive, believe, accept...all these words are active verbs.

[Cronos]

You use Romans 12:3 to describe where faith comes from:

“Rom 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.”

Here is that passage in context:

” 1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

3For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
4For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
5so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;
7if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching;
8the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.”

Wow, that puts a whole new light on it, doesn’t it!

Reading a passage out of context can lead to errors, yes

[Cronos]

SEEN . . . from a point in space . . . a circle is formed.

deviating again -- that reminded me of Terry PRatchet's Discworld series :)

[Cronos]

Those who call us "God's automatons" should realize what an unearned privilege that title really is. Please, God, continue to guide our every move and thank you for never letting us go

Tres, tres interessant..

[Dr. Eckleburg]

the other links to a VANITY FR post that was positioned as "proof"

To what are you referring here?

[Cronos]

It's all a gift. Everything. And none of it comes from us. It's all by Christ, through Christ, for Christ. "And by Him all things consist."

Seriously -- the problem with that line of thinking is akin to the Jabria school of thought of Islam, which denied basic human free will (as espoused by the Mu'tazili) and it led to Islamic deoband thinking of man as an automaton. That is dangerous thinking

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The quote didn’t drop the “ckleburg.”

[Cronos]

When you think about it, why would the word or concept used be "gift" if it could not be accepted? I have given a gift that was rejected in the past, didn't make me feel very good, but it was given freely and could be accepted freely, or not. I can't MAKE someone take a gift.

Of course, God CAN make us take the gift and happily. but He doesn't. He gives hte choice to reject it. In fact, our God of Love keeps offering the gift to us, over and over again, despite us rejecting it over and over again. Isn't that amazing? God's love for us is truly deeper than the ocean.

And this love for us doesn't make God seem weaker in my eyes, but far more powerful -- you and I are afraid to love other people for fear of rejection, but God has no fear. Wow! That's so incredible when you think of it.

[Cronos]

“Ex-Jewish mystics called Crystal” can be Roman Catholic, too.

Ah, so that's your argument now for passing a UFO mystics website as a "Catholic website". And I guess the same argument for passing a BLOG as a "official Vatican approved website"?

[roamer_1]

[boatbums:] It's way past dinnertime here, and you just made my mouth start watering! YUM!!!

[Dr. Eckleburg:] I miss beefsteak tomatoes. Out here they have these round red things that taste like a wet sponge.

I know what you mean (both of you). One of my clients (I am a computer tech) gets his laptop fixed for free, because he always remembers me when he is passing through Kansas when Beefsteaks are in season... Every year he brings me a brown paper grocery bag full of them.

I still eat them on the back porch, salt shaker in hand... with iced sweet-tea in a Ball jar close to hand. Not much better than that. :D

[Cronos]

NO ONE SAID IT WASN'T A BLOG.

Retracting again? Wasn't the statement made that it was a "official Vatican approved website"? And it's clearly not an official website of the Vatican or the Legion of MAry. It's clearly just a BLOG put up by someone, and is not the "official" blog even of the Legion. And, finally, since it is the BLOG of a person who says he is part of a group that is formed of Catholics, you seem to infer that that is now the official doctrin of The Church?

Does the OPC work that way? Tomorrow, if we pull up posts of yours and quote them as official website of the OPC?

[boatbums]

Tres, tres interessant..

Are you speaking in tongues now? ;o)

[Cronos]

I do not believe in a works-based salvation at all.

Neither does The Church or indeed any tridentine Christian group since the pelagians (incidently, in the movie "Arthur", the director takes a swipe at The Church for it's clamping down on Pelagians and now on this forum, Or. Eck accuses us of that very same thing -- strange!)

If you say that Men "receive" the gift of the Holy Spirit. Passive. They don't "accept" it. Active. and differentiate between receiving and accepting, you infer that the gift is forced on us.

[annalex]

Christ's atonement attaches on a step by step basis as mortal sins occur throughout life

I would say it applies as you sin and repent. If you don't repent it does not apply to you. These are steps only in this sense:

brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin [even, stumble] at any time. (2 Peter 1:10, the whole process of sanctification is verses 2-10)

The process is gradual:

12 ... my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. 13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will. 14 And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; 15 That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof

(Phil. 2)

now our salvation is nearer than when we believed (Rom. 13:11)

Justification is by faith which fuels our works of love. But it is not one time event. It is a process.

The passages in Romans 3 and Romans 5 do not say anything different. They explain how if it weren't for Christ we would not be justified at all. It does not say that justification, or salvation are single one time events in their application to the believer.

Wouldn't you really have to say that it was the penance that brings life because THAT is what makes the atonement of any value to the individual?

No, I would not, because penance is not efficacious without the Cross. I have to add my penance to the suffering of Christ -- I am in fact, asked by Christ to do so

If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (Matthew 16:24, many similar)

[I, Paul] rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church (1 Col 1:24, often mistranslated)

-- but my suffering never stands on its own. My cross follows His Cross.

grammatical problem with the idea of election being on again, off again, and on again, etc.?

No, no problem. It is the end result that God foresees. It only seems a bumpy road to me, He knows where I end up. One cannot lose his election in the sense of God thinking one thing and you end up different. But one can have an imperfect sense of God working in him when in fact it is he himself working in himself to a disastrous end. One can lose the salvation available, through the Cross, to him. To lose one's election is a Biblical term (2Pe. 1:10) but the reference is of course to the loss of salvation despite a strong hope.

In the OT the focus was on the physical (physical deeds), many of which were only symbolic, like the sacrifices. With the coming of Christ the focus shifted to the spiritual, we were no longer under the Law. Why then, would Catholicism refocus the attention back to the physical both in this life with the sacraments being salvific, and at the end times at judgment? This seems like a reversion to me

We are no longer under the law of Jewish symbolisms. We are under a Law of he new convenant. It is different in that it is not legalistic. Not to murder, for example is not enough, -- anger qualifies as murder (Mt 5:21). The Old Testament Law told the Jews in simple terms what not to do. This is like you teach a child not to run with scissors. But an adult needs an adult law where he needs to focus on what to do: love God and one another. The sacraments are no longer rutuals to fulfill, they are roadposts and food on the journey, the Bread of Life.

[annalex]

C’mon, Kansas is not flat. They cut roads through yellow sandstone. KC has cliffs. Real cliffs.

[boatbums]

our God of Love keeps offering the gift to us, over and over again, despite us rejecting it over and over again. Isn't that amazing? God's love for us is truly deeper than the ocean.

I makes me love him even more knowing that he never gave up on me and never will. Me or anyone else. He is always calling, always looking, always searching, always loving. Praise be the name of the Lord!

[Cronos]

Cronos: the other links to a VANITY FR post that was positioned as "proof"
Oc. Eck: To what are you referring here?

Nice try to diverge from post 6928 where a link is made to http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2421970/posts?page=6948#6928 which is a VANITY post written by "OrthodoxPresybterian" (an anti-Catholic VANITY thread by a poster who was BANNED for being an anti-war moonbat. ).

I guess one can forget this example of a VANITY post being posited as proof, if one also supposes that BLOGs are "official Vatican websites" and crystallinks (a link to a UfO-ologists website) is posed as a "Catholic website"

[boatbums]

I still eat them on the back porch, salt shaker in hand... with iced sweet-tea in a Ball jar close to hand. Not much better than that. :D

You must be a Southerner!!! I remember fondly summer dinners of fresh picked tomatoes and sweet corn. Maybe a few slices of sweet onions, too. Now THAT'S a meal!!!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Do parched farmlands "accept" the rain?

Do parents "accept" the good health of their children?

These are free unearned gifts from God to whom He will. Ephesians 2.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:8-10