Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
“The only Scripture that is claimed to be from the mouth of God is the Torah, minus Deuteronomy.”
Scripture is “God-breathed”. Where does breath come from?
“We have it from the Gospel writer known as Luke and the writer of Revelation known as John that God did not write their books.”
“19And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” - 2 Peter 1
“An appeal to Scripture does not prove sola.”
You have something more sure than Peter’s memory of the Transfiguration, and more certain than the breath of God? Is it hidden in that soft Iowa snow?
BTW - I generally refuse to ride when it is below 55 deg F. Does that ever happen in Iowa?
“Ah, my friend, consider this: how were the Scriptures chosen? Who chose them?”
The Old Testament was known by the Jews, and endorsed by Jesus Christ. In like manner, the early congregations knew God’s voice when they heard it.
Me “But remember, sola scriptura doesn’t say we cannot use anything else, only that anything else we use falls under the authority of scripture.” / MB “Where is the Scriptural authority of that statement?”
2 Tim 3:16,16
The church uses scripture to teach, correct, rebuke and train. The result is a man of God fully equipped for every good work. Therefor, if you need it for salvation or good work, scripture has it. And being God’s breath, it is more reliable than Man’s breath.
“Hmmm....then aren’t the free will people claims that God gave man a free will advocating that they know what is in His secret counsel?”
It is inferred from the account of the Fall, and from the uncounted (by me) hundreds of times we are presented as making a real choice.
When Jesus said, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”, the plain meaning is that we can repent (or not) and believe (or not). Otherwise he wouldn’t tell us to do so.
It only takes a secret meaning if Jesus REALLY meant, “Repent (if God makes you do so) and believe (if God gives you belief) or die (for God’s pleasure).”
I’ll have mine plain.
This is silly, but circles are also flat. SPHERES are the set of points in three dimensions all equidistant from a given point, while circles are the set of points in TWO dimensions (r.e. FLAT) all equidistant from a given point.
Amazing the amount of basic geometry Catholics have to teach Protestants.
Scripture is “God-breathed”. Where does breath come from?
Where does Scripture say that it is God-breathed?
“We have it from the Gospel writer known as Luke and the writer of Revelation known as John that God did not write their books.” “19And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” - 2 Peter 1
Now we have the same argument as those who are hijacked by the Reformed Stockholm Syndrome Holy Spirit.
Let us visit Luke 1: 1 1 Since many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the events that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as those who were eyewitnesses from the beginning and ministers of the word have handed them down to us, 3 I too have decided, after investigating everything accurately anew, to write it down in an orderly sequence for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may realize the certainty of the teachings you have received.
No oral dictation here. Shall we move on to
Revelation 1: 10 I was caught up in spirit on the Lord's day 9 and heard behind me a voice as loud as a trumpet, 11 which said, "Write on a scroll 10 what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea."
Do you have another source which indicates that God dictated the Bible? Remember that Allah dictated to Muhammed and the Biune God dictated to Joseph Smith, before you weigh in here.
“An appeal to Scripture does not prove sola.” You have something more sure than Peter’s memory of the Transfiguration, and more certain than the breath of God? Is it hidden in that soft Iowa snow?
This is not a sufficient counter argument. An appeal to Scripture does not prove sola.
BTW - I generally refuse to ride when it is below 55 deg F. Does that ever happen in Iowa?
To my knowledge, it has never dropped below 55 deg R in Iowa.
The Old Testament was known by the Jews, and endorsed by Jesus Christ. In like manner, the early congregations knew God’s voice when they heard it.
In neither case, a sufficient answer. Especially the NT answer. Why was the Shepherd or Barnabas not included? Why was the Revelation of John included, and not the Revelation of Peter? Why the Acts of the Apostles and not the Acts of Peter, the Acts of Paul, the Acts of Peter and Paul? These and many more were considered.
Me “But remember, sola scriptura doesn’t say we cannot use anything else, only that anything else we use falls under the authority of scripture.” / MB “Where is the Scriptural authority of that statement?”
2 Tim 3:16,16
The church uses scripture to teach, correct, rebuke and train. The result is a man of God fully equipped for every good work. Therefor, if you need it for salvation or good work, scripture has it. And being God’s breath, it is more reliable than Man’s breath.
Sufficient for every good work. There is nothing about salvation here. Nothing about God's breath. And nothing about sola.
You said, ““Even your faith is a gift.”
I asked for scripture, and you reply, “Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”
That doesn’t make faith a gift, it means when we hear, we can have faith. After all, the passage reads:
14How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
You use Romans 12:3 to describe where faith comes from:
“Rom 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.”
Here is that passage in context:
” 1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
3For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.”
Wow, that puts a whole new light on it, doesn’t it!
Barnes comments:
The measure of faith. The word faith here is evidently put for religion, or Christianity. Faith is a main thing in religion. It constitutes its first demand; and the Christian religion, therefore, is characterized by its faith, or its confidence in God. See Mark 16:16. Comp. Hebrews 11; Romans 4. We are not therefore to be elated in our view of ourselves; we are not to judge of our own characters by wealth, or talent, or learning; but by our attachment to God, and by the influence of faith on our minds. The meaning is, judge yourselves, or estimate yourselves, by your piety. The propriety of this rule is apparent,
(1.) because no other standard is a correct one, or one of value. Our talent, learning, rank, or wealth, is a very improper rule by which to estimate ourselves. All may be wholly unconnected with moral worth; and the worst as well as the best men may possess them.
(2.) God will judge us in the day of judgment by our attachment to Christ and his cause, (Matthew 25) and that is the true standard by which to estimate ourselves here.
(3.) Nothing else will secure and promote humility but this. All other things may produce or promote pride, but this will effectually secure humility. The fact that God has given all that we have; the fact that the poor and obscure may have as true an elevation of character as ourselves; the consciousness of our own imperfections and short-comings in the Christian faith; and the certainty that we are soon to be arraigned to try this great question, whether we have evidence that we are the friends of God, will all tend to promote humbleness of mind, and to bring down our usual inordinate self-estimation. If all Christians judged themselves in this way, it would remove at once no small part of the pride of station and of life from the world, and would produce deep attachment for those who are blessed with the faith of the gospel, though they may be unadorned by any of the wealth or trappings which now promote pride and distinctions among men. “
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=ro&chapter=012
For my part, I will say that the ability to come to God is truly a gift, for unless God in his grace revealed himself to us, we would neither seek nor come. God reaches down to us, and his revelation is a gift that brings us the chance of faith.
However, I suspect you will remember these passages:
Mat 9:2 And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.”
Mat 9:22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.
Mat 9:29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.”
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.
Act 14:9 He listened to Paul speaking. And Paul, looking intently at him and seeing that he had faith to be made well,
Jesus presents faith as something we have and do.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom 4:20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,
He grew strong in his faith...not, God gave him more faith.
James says, “5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. 6But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.”
But let him ask in faith...not let him ask God for faith (which is what he has just said about wisdom).
Why am I not surprised someone would come out swinging.
You may have to tell me a couple dozen times . . . just how I tend to be with such details.
LOL . . . SO, IF
you were a label, which label would OTHERS say you were closest to?
Thx.
"15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." - 2 Tim 3
No sola? Show me something else that comes direct from God's mouth, that is to be used for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training.
SEEN . . . from a point in space . . .
a circle is formed.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
My KJV does not say God breathed. It says inspired. It also says wise unto salvation. It does not say that it is sufficient, as well, these Scriptures are the OT. There was no NT at this point.
No sola? Show me something else that comes direct from God's mouth, that is to be used for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training.
Useful is still not sola. It does not even indicate primacy.
Like some folks' logic? Amazing the amount of basic geometry Catholics have to teach Protestants.
And it's not the only thing.
It’s amazing the amount of projective geometry Charismatics have to teach Catholics .....
;-0
Umm... Yeah... FLAT. Like where I park my pickup truck.
hmmmmm
I, too, think Percocets are pretty worthless. They have Tylenol in them, and some people have no relief from that NSAID. You may want to take ibuprofen (Motrin, Advil) with the Percs and use ice packs. I had my tonsils taken out when I was in my late twenties and was given those as well. It was agony even to swallow them and they did nothing for me. The doc’s advice was, well take two, well take three...please. I couldn’t eat anything for a week, but I lost 10 pounds! If you’re still in pain Monday, ask your doc for something else. I’ll pray for you.
Sounds pretty flat to me... :D ;) But then I'm in the Rockies... That IS flat, up here... You see, it is all about perception, after all - Where you sit from where you stand
How far east do you have to go before you start heading west??? ;o)
"God breathed" is the same as "inspired by God". These are not significant distinctions. You are right though that "useful", or "profitable" is not "alone sufficient", but rather it indicates that it is something building on something else, as scripture builds upon tradition. This verse is a Catholic prooftext, it agrues against Sola Scriptura
If you know and practice the tradition "knowing from whom you learned them" and THEN you read the scripture you see a profit: your faith strengthens and you can defend it better.
If you just read the scripture, you played a roulette. You may get ahead, or you may lose. No profit is guaranteed. Calvin, for example, dreamt up his ridiculous doctrines by reading the scripture without regard for tradition. See where he ended up.
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