Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[Petronski]

But to Catholics this is a horrible thought.

No, to Catholics this is a false tradition of men ironically not found in Scripture.

[RnMomof7]

Who atones for your sins?

John Calvin

Christ atoned for my sin, so I do not need to atone myself with "penance" or "self flagellation", or purgatory ...Christ paid the price for my sins

1 John 2:1,2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

[Petronski]

Congratulations! You agree with the Catholic Church.

[Mad Dawg]

I'm back to passing out when I cough again, so I'm allowed to be extravagant in my rhetoric. It's in the rule book, I just KNOW it is!

Okay Sola Scripturites: Where does the word "atone" appear in the NT, what is the Greek (hilasmos?) and what does it mean? What does the KPR stem mean in Hebrew. Is "Atone" really the best translation - since it is, after all a made up word.

Hint: Love ***covers*** a multitude of sins. (That's in the Bible, kids.) Calypso anyone? Apo-calypso?

This is SUCH a bogus fight! I can;'t believe it. We have a made up English word which was MADE UP (I"m guessing, though Tyndale comes to mind) to provide a term for all the multitude of images used to describe what IHS accomplished in His life and death and rising. We have the atomistic, sort of time-and-deeds-come-in-chunks view whether Jesus was sort of marking time up until he got crucified, or maybe up until the period from Holy Thu PM to Easter Morning.

OR we have the view that starts with God's word "Let there be light," and will end only in the unimaginable consummation and every minute was God saving us through His creating, redeeming, re-creating Word.

And in the infinite and incomprehensible vastness of the Providential Vision and Love we have a few hundred words attempting to convey what cannot be adequately conveyed by any number of words. But those who would reduce God to some tiny Procrustean bed of a theological system find fault because their formulaic expressions, based on a word with roots in 14th century English, are not echoed word for word in somebody else's words.

Sometimes you just have to wonder what is going on here, except that I'm pretty confident Satan gets a kick out of it.

[Mad Dawg]

atoning sacrifice

That is not a translation. THAT is a paraphrase. I don't even need to crack my Koine NT. HE is the "hilasmos" for our sins.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for sharing your testimony, dear brother in Christ, and thank you for your encouragements!

Of a truth, I do not perceive malice in you towards any other human being.

I do however perceive malice in you towards certain practices or beliefs which are anathematic to your own practices or beliefs. And when it happens, I perceive a corollary in those who own those certain practices or beliefs.

That I believe is captured in your key word “surface” in this part of your testimony:

I'm certainly not once size fits all. I KNOW FROM TONS OF EXPERIENCE WITH 100'S IF NOT thousands of people, that GOD REALLY DOES use me to surface all kinds of things in other people--often much of it negative. It happens when I'm being sweetness and light. It happens when I'm being fiercely satirical--it just happens a lot. Goes with the territory. Yet, some folks just don't seem to profit from such an experience in anything like the short term--though an added percentage outraged in the short-term do prove to profit in the long term.

Having long been on the receiving end of fierce condemnations in the never-ending creation v evolution debates, I testify here that it has helped me examine and improve both my arguments and my "self."

My daughter, by the way, is well known for her unflinching ability to examine herself. When someone says “you are a…” she instantly examines herself to see if that is true. I’m not quite there yet, but I’m improving. LOLOL!

More to the point of your profession, it seems to me that a person seeking professional counseling will need to leap over that hurdle before any real progress can be made.

At any rate, I do appreciate all those scientists and atheists who have over the years hurled condemnations at my arguments, beliefs and mental acuity. For me, iron really does sharpen iron.

Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. –Proverbs 27:17

But I suspect not everyone is iron to begin with so for them, it may be quite painful or unwanted and therefore ignored or condemned.

To God be the glory, not man, never man!

[Petronski]

I provided this link to HarleyD two days ago so that she might read of Christ's atonement for our sins in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and I was told in return "There is NOTHING in that Catechism that states our Lord Jesus paid the penalty for our sins..." and "...you keep posting the same thing over and over. It just says that Christ 'died for the sins of the world'. This is not the same as atoning for our sins..." and, most absurdly of all, "I would suggest you are not reading your Catechism correctly."

So is Satan merely getting a laugh out of this? Or is it ultimately his doing to begin with?

[ArrogantBustard]

Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for sharing your insights, dear sister in Christ!

Truly, “ears to hear” is a gift of God.

And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. - Deuteronomy 29:2-5

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. – Matthew 13:14-16

And again,

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. – John 6:65

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. - Romans 10:17

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63

To God be the glory, not man, never man!

[RnMomof7]

Okay Sola Scripturites: Where does the word "atone" appear in the NT, what is the Greek (hilasmos?) and what does it mean? What does the KPR stem mean in Hebrew. Is "Atone" really the best translation - since it is, after all a made up word.

Rom 3:25 — Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

1Jo 4:10 — Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.Transliteration hilasmos
Part of Speech masculine noun Outline of Biblical Usage
1) an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

Hint: Love ***covers*** a multitude of sins. (That's in the Bible, kids.) Calypso anyone? Apo-calypso?

The blood of the sacrifices in the OT covered the sin/ atoned for the sin of the man..but that did not cover future sin ..He had to keep going back and REOFFERING sacrifices to cover his sin.. BUT we have a better high Priest

Hbr 10:12 — But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Hbr 10:14 — For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Jud 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:

[RnMomof7]

Just what does that mean to you?

[Quix]

WOW.

Thanks more than I can express.

I identify with your daughter. Used to be obsessive about it . . . even in my marriage—both of us pulling the “garden plants” up virtually daily to see if they were still growing. Kinda hard on the “garden!”

Earlier, in my BA program, in the first “T-group” on the campus . . . and in most of my relationships . . . so desperate to be less miserable, virtually relentlessly demanding any input anyone would give . . . ending up sometimes like the man with the donkey a pack and all the passers by with umpteen DIFFERENT opinions about how he and his donkey should go down the road.

Along the way . . . still eager to receive input but realizing that ONLY JESUS is the author and finisher of our faith and of us. We are incapable of FIXING ourselves. The best we can do is cooperate with HIM and otherwise, stay out of the way.

What a moving blessing you have been to me, on awakening today. Feeling UNDERSTOOD is one of the most heavy duty ways I feel God’s Love. Thanks greatly.

BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE WAYS OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE WORD OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE RETURN OF THE KING.

[Mad Dawg]

"propitiation" is too restrictive a translation for hilasmos.

As for the rest I didn't ask for Scriptures about the CONCEPT of Christ restoring unity between the redeemed and God. The complaint against the catechism seemed to be about the choice of words. So to point out how totally off the wall the complaints were, I asked for the use of THE WORD atonement in the Bible.

My complaint is this over-reaching grabbing at a non-existent andimpossilbe clarity about what is a mystery.

If I recall correctly, in the LXX hilasmos translates the KPR words of the hebrew Testament. KPR really does have a root meaning o 'cover" which I'd guess is why Peter uses a kalyps word -(apo+calypse is pretty much UN + VEIL, kalypse is veil, so by implication a covering.

THe KPR stem gets into Arabic as the root of the word Kaffir - infidel, the idea seems to be the infidel covers the true doctrine.

SO, when we get to "covering" as the root concept behind what is later called "atonement" we realize that one image, one word isn't gonna get it. The thing is too big. We can only look for an array of images to hope to be able to touch it, much less grasp it.

And part of that is understanding what it means for us to be NOT at-oned with God.

So the discourse grows as the insight which only the atoning love ;-) of Christ can give is developed.

[Quix]

Hey, Bro . . .

I remember what super painful coughing is like . . . cracked ribs etc.

Some have insisted that onions—some say cut open and nearby and some say boiling in a pot in the room . . . can help congestion tremendously.

Prayers anyway.

LUB

[Alamo-Girl]

I identify with your daughter. Used to be obsessive about it . . . even in my marriage—both of us pulling the “garden plants” up virtually daily to see if they were still growing. Kinda hard on the “garden!”

LOLOL! I'm going to share that one with her.

Thank you so much for your testimony and encouragements, dear brother in Christ!

[Mad Dawg]

It is important for husbands to remember that we must be prepared to give our lives for our wife. And if I boiled onions, I'm guessing Nancy would TAKE my life, offered or not!

;-)

Actually thanks for the thought. I am reading your guy and letting this run to give me the insight God wants to share.

[Mad Dawg]

Amen.

[Quix]

Tell spicey spousey wifey . . .

that when one lives where I’ve lived . . .

smells become . . . part of the tableau of living.

And onions are some of the BETTER smells.

One could add garlic!

Oh, reading—I remember now. I pray The Lord affirms whatever fits for you. Would sure love to see you free of all that.

LUB

[betty boop]

...the separation between man and God.

This separation, to the extent it exists, comes from the human side of the God–Man relation. Or so it seems to me.

One sure way to separate ourselves from God is to attempt to rationalize His Holy Word. What I mean by this is reading the Biblical texts as if they were quite ordinary language statements such as one finds textbooks, rather than as the inspired Word of God; and further, as if Biblical statements have only one possible rational meaning.

My own sense is texts of the Holy Scriptures often have multiple levels of meaning. Not to mention these meanings are globally "reinforced" across the entire holy work. As an obvious example of this, consider the OT prophets foreseeing/foretelling the coming of the NT Christ.

So it is possible that two persons debating "degrees of separation" among Christians on the basis of the meaning of particular scriptural texts aren't even "on the same page," so to speak. The only way they can get "on the same page" is to reduce the divine language to customary human language terms both can agree on.

But with this reduction, we drain the text of Spirit. Now we are not speaking of God's Word and His Will for us any longer at all, rather which side is to prevail in an argument. Such "debates" usually only separate Christians one from another, often enough with considerable acrimony — and thus from God.

I don't know if I've explained this very well. It all has to do with the relations between faith and reason. Faith must come first. Then we are free to engage in the fides quaerens intellectum, a theological method associated with Anselm of Canterbury, in which confident faith seeks intellectual understanding of itself. Which is what I've basically been trying to do all my adult life.

But I have to tell you this "quest" is utterly internal, and the way must be lit by the Holy Spirit. It is utterly pointless to "argue" about it, or what it has revealed. Yet having started from the position of "confident faith," increasingly I see how completely "reasonable" it is.... From God's own revelations of Himself in Scripture, in the Creation (i.e., the natural world subject to physical laws and principles), in Christ, and in the Holy Spirit with us.

Sometimes I get the impression that those who argue on the basis of a given interpretation of Holy Scripture are doing so in order to confirm the truthfulness of their faith. Others agreeing with us is a kind of "confidence builder." But if that is so, then it stands to reason there was no confident faith to begin with.

In other words, the agreement of others with our interpretation is what gives us confidence in our faith. If others do not agree, this creates anxiety and division — "degrees of separation."

But our faith is confirmed only by God, in God. It cannot be confirmed by the "opinions" of man.

I do not believe that this is what our Father in Heaven wants for his children.

What God wants is that we live by His One Great Commandment: To love Him with our whole heart and soul and mind and strength; and — its sublime corollary — to love our neighbor as ourself.

Then we avoid the problem of separation — from Him, and from our Christian brethren of whatever denomination — and build up the Body of Christ.

Just my thoughts, dearest sister in Christ, for whatever they're worth.

Thank you so very much for your kind words!

[RnMomof7]

atoning sacrifice
That is not a translation. THAT is a paraphrase. I don't even need to crack my Koine NT. HE is the "hilasmos" for our sins.

What does this mean to you? What did Christ do on the cross?? Cover your sins ?? make payment for them? What does the cross of Christ do?