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To: Alamo-Girl; Quix; xzins; metmom; hosepipe; marron
...the separation between man and God.

This separation, to the extent it exists, comes from the human side of the God–Man relation. Or so it seems to me.

One sure way to separate ourselves from God is to attempt to rationalize His Holy Word. What I mean by this is reading the Biblical texts as if they were quite ordinary language statements such as one finds textbooks, rather than as the inspired Word of God; and further, as if Biblical statements have only one possible rational meaning.

My own sense is texts of the Holy Scriptures often have multiple levels of meaning. Not to mention these meanings are globally "reinforced" across the entire holy work. As an obvious example of this, consider the OT prophets foreseeing/foretelling the coming of the NT Christ.

So it is possible that two persons debating "degrees of separation" among Christians on the basis of the meaning of particular scriptural texts aren't even "on the same page," so to speak. The only way they can get "on the same page" is to reduce the divine language to customary human language terms both can agree on.

But with this reduction, we drain the text of Spirit. Now we are not speaking of God's Word and His Will for us any longer at all, rather which side is to prevail in an argument. Such "debates" usually only separate Christians one from another, often enough with considerable acrimony — and thus from God.

I don't know if I've explained this very well. It all has to do with the relations between faith and reason. Faith must come first. Then we are free to engage in the fides quaerens intellectum, a theological method associated with Anselm of Canterbury, in which confident faith seeks intellectual understanding of itself. Which is what I've basically been trying to do all my adult life.

But I have to tell you this "quest" is utterly internal, and the way must be lit by the Holy Spirit. It is utterly pointless to "argue" about it, or what it has revealed. Yet having started from the position of "confident faith," increasingly I see how completely "reasonable" it is.... From God's own revelations of Himself in Scripture, in the Creation (i.e., the natural world subject to physical laws and principles), in Christ, and in the Holy Spirit with us.

Sometimes I get the impression that those who argue on the basis of a given interpretation of Holy Scripture are doing so in order to confirm the truthfulness of their faith. Others agreeing with us is a kind of "confidence builder." But if that is so, then it stands to reason there was no confident faith to begin with.

In other words, the agreement of others with our interpretation is what gives us confidence in our faith. If others do not agree, this creates anxiety and division — "degrees of separation."

But our faith is confirmed only by God, in God. It cannot be confirmed by the "opinions" of man.

I do not believe that this is what our Father in Heaven wants for his children.

What God wants is that we live by His One Great Commandment: To love Him with our whole heart and soul and mind and strength; and — its sublime corollary — to love our neighbor as ourself.

Then we avoid the problem of separation — from Him, and from our Christian brethren of whatever denomination — and build up the Body of Christ.

Just my thoughts, dearest sister in Christ, for whatever they're worth.

Thank you so very much for your kind words!

6,579 posted on 01/26/2010 9:36:52 AM PST by betty boop (Malevolence wears the false face of honesty. — Tacitus)
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To: betty boop
What a beautiful essay-post, dearest sister in Christ!

But with this reduction, we drain the text of Spirit. Now we are not speaking of God's Word and His Will for us any longer at all, rather which side is to prevail in an argument. Such "debates" usually only separate Christians one from another, often enough with considerable acrimony — and thus from God.

So very true! The language of the natural man is not up to the task.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Cor 2:13-14

You have explained this very well indeed.

I don't know if I've explained this very well. It all has to do with the relations between faith and reason. Faith must come first. Then we are free to engage in the fides quaerens intellectum, a theological method associated with Anselm of Canterbury, in which confident faith seeks intellectual understanding of itself. Which is what I've basically been trying to do all my adult life.

But I have to tell you this "quest" is utterly internal, and the way must be lit by the Holy Spirit. It is utterly pointless to "argue" about it, or what it has revealed. Yet having started from the position of "confident faith," increasingly I see how completely "reasonable" it is.... From God's own revelations of Himself in Scripture, in the Creation (i.e., the natural world subject to physical laws and principles), in Christ, and in the Holy Spirit with us.

As you say, the quest is utterly internal and must be illuminated by God.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:4-5

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. - I John 1:5

And of course, I strongly agree with you about God's revelation of Himself. The Father has revealed Himself to us in four ways: 1) the Person of Jesus Christ, 2) the Person of the Holy Spirit, 3) the Scriptures, and 4) the Creation both spiritual and physical.

As you suggest, if the agreement of others builds confidence in the speaker, then he started short of "confident faith."

May God ever bless you and your loved ones, dearest sister in Christ!

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

6,584 posted on 01/26/2010 10:01:19 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop

“My own sense is texts of the Holy Scriptures often have mulitple levels of meaning.”

I’m glad you mention this, as this is the way I was taught...”The Four Senses of Scripture”.

I was also taught that these levels are “ ‘globally’ reinforced across the entire holy work”. It wasn’t expressed in the exact terms you use, but I certainly learned it that way.


6,587 posted on 01/26/2010 10:11:05 AM PST by Running On Empty ( The three sorriest words: "It's too late")
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl

While I agree that there can be layers of meaning in the text, it seems to me that the text is not some kind of code. By that, I mean that the normal rules of language must be applied to the words, sentence structure, and grammar. Otherwise, the text could mean anything, and therefore, nothing.

If it says “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” then I am compelled to take that at face value so far as the sentence itself is concerned. There are subjects, predicates, articles, nominates, objects, and prepositions. They are arranged in such a way as to indicate a particular relationship.

It is only in comparing text to text that I can venture into understanding the layers of meaning and richness of theology that is present.


6,707 posted on 01/27/2010 6:01:12 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: betty boop

Beautifully expressed.


6,729 posted on 01/27/2010 9:06:24 AM PST by marron
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