Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[cyborg]

LOL!

[cyborg]

I prayed for one for two years then God got tired of me asking and helped me pass my nursing boards so I could afford one :D

[annalex]

One Believer was purportedly taken to hell and to heaven

We know of one who was. St. Lazarus was dead and that being before the Redemption, he saw the Limbo of the Fathers, the "prison" where Christ a week later was to deliver freedom (1 Peter 3:19, Luke 4:19).

But he lived, and became a bishop of Kition, Cyprus.

The Crypt of St. Lazarus St. Lazarus, Larnaca, Cyprus

More...

So, what did he see, anyway?

The legend has it that he told the questioners of the sufferers in the Limbo.

It is interesting that modern commentators presume Lazarus saw heaven. Of course he didn't, not that time around.

[Alamo-Girl]

All who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord, God, King and Savior have been redeemed by His sacrifice on the cross. We are more fortunate than we can even imagine - all believers.

Amen!

Even sincere Christians can practice idolatry. As you once commented, we do it every day when we put something or someone either ahead of or on the same level as the Triune God.

Truly said.

Whether a beloved spouse, child, self, things or whatever - for however long something is as important to us as God (or more so) - we are idolators.

And the thing which has robbed God of our undivided love can even be unpleasant, e.g. a stubbed toe, anger, self-pity.

Even something as subtle as worry reveals that, for as long as we are worried, we are not trusting God and believing Him.

Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof. - Matt 6:31-34

Truly, there is only One Great Commandment:

Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying, Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. – Matthew 22:35-40

Thank you so much for your encouragements, dear sister in Christ!

[Iscool]

We mean the Church that Jesus gave us. I don't know which particular church you may be referring to when you talk about church. I understand that you are the proprietor of the Church of Iscool (population one) and occupy the throne of LaZBoy on Sundays in front of the Holy Sports Tube.

Wishful thinking on your part maybe...

I was added to the church that Jesus created when I accepted Jesus as my Savior...Just as hundreds of millions, or billions of other Christians have done...

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And I received the gift of the Holy Ghost...The Spirit of God came into my body and I went into Jesus Christ...

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the Baptist church daily such as should be saved.

HaHaHaHaHa...It wasn't a Catholic church either...

And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

[Iscool]

Nobody turns into Jesus Christ except for Jesus Christ. I don't understand the confusion. Jesus is God. Jesus is not somebody to be manipulated by the various Protestant groups.

What are you talking about??? We've been saying that all along...

Yours is the religion that has priests turning into Jesus Christ...Your debate is with other Catholics...We're just watching to see who the winner is...

[Iscool]

In the style of church building developed after the Reformation, the so-called "auditory" style, the focus of the Church was on the preacher, rather than on Christ.

That's because Jesus is not standing there preaching...And He's not standing there preaching in your church either...So if you don't focus on the priest, what are you focusing on???

But we do NOT look to our clergy for teaching, and I have cheerfully ignored many a ferociously awful homily.

Who does the teaching then???

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for sharing your testimony, dear brother in Christ, and thank you for your encouragements!

That is an interesting point, yet one might argue that since the understanding of God's revelation to us is sufficiently different that we may be separated in more than just a nominal fashion.

Degrees of separation would make for an interesting discussion. Indeed, the whole doctrine of separation would make for an interesting discussion. I would love to hear more about what is meant by that term.

I can confidently say that someone is outside the body of Christ if (s)he denies Who Christ IS, Who God IS.

Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

I and [my] Father are one. - John 10:24-30

And for me to call someone my brother or sister in Christ, a member of His body, I must hear his testimony and discern at least some of the fruits of the Spirit:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23

And I call betty boop my dearest sister in Christ because I have heard her testimony and discerned all of these fruits of the Spirit in her.

God's Name is I AM and Alpha and Omega.

[Iscool]

When somebody tells me that he is constantly asking what we teach and then says our Church has nothing to do with faith in Jesus and our Catechism is a lousy commentary on Scripture and tells me all about how we treat our clergy (except that is isn't how we actually treat our clergy), the one thing I know is that I don't know what's going on.

One thing that's been established from the get-go is that you guys are not willing to divulge what your catechism says on a given topic...I suspect it's because it's contradicts scripture at every turn...

And every time I hear you speak of your faith, it is faith in your religion, not Jesus...The Catholic Faith...

And yes, you have nothing to do with faith OF Jesus (is what I posted)...AND your religion is not the vehicle for that faith, Jesus is the vehicle...

I don't believe I said anything about how you treat your clergy...

[Iscool]

When a somebody repeatedly expresses anti Catholic rhetoric and then openly admits he knows absolutely nothing on the subject and is not interested in learning the truth the only conclusion left is that the misrepresentation is willful and with malicious intent.

They call this double-speak...We call 'em as we see 'em...Your unwillingness to provide your 'truth' to the issues just exacerbates the issue...

IF you won't defend your position, apparently you don't have a position that's defensible...

[Running On Empty]

Let me ask:

What about fruits of the Spirit “in potentia”?

And also: would it be true (or not) that in the “discerning of the fruits of the Spirit” we could come close to judging our neighbor...and if our discernment caused us to believe at one time that one could not be a “brother/sister in Christ”, could not that person also have the potential to become so?

And if that were so, wouldn’t we be obeying the great commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves, that in doing so we be a light unto them?

Is discerning different from judging and if so, in what way?

[Natural Law]

"IF you won't defend your position, apparently you don't have a position that's defensible... "

The exact response to the question has been posted within this thread no less than three times. That some cannot or will not comprehend the response or even accept it as the legitimate position of the Church is both beyond control and beyond contempt.

[Running On Empty]

“...every time I hear you speak of your faith, it is faith in youe religion, not Jesus...”

It’s apparent that you haven’t “heard” MD in very many of his posts then, after all-—

[Cvengr]

Agreed, and it isn’t the faith that is judged because our faith at the time of gathering will have already screened out much of the chaff, it will be the works as to whether they were dead or good by Divine standards. By keeping our good works as those performed through faith in Christ, we have a veritable basis of assurance that such works will have reward at the bema seat.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for your wonderful questions, dear sister in Christ!

Concerning in potentia, I worded my reply carefully, i.e. at least some of the fruits of the Spirit. Sanctification is a walk. As we abide in Christ, more and more Spiritual fruits are brought through us.

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:1-5

And concerning discernment v judgment, I would point to two passages from Matthew 7 which might seem to be contradictory on the surface but they are not.

The first deals with judgment and the second with discernment:

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. – Matthew 7:1-2

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. - Matthew 7:15-20

God’s justice is perfection: we each individually build the scales whereby we will be each and individually measured – weight by weight. (Matthew 7:1-2) And God assures the balance:

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: - Luke 6:37

Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. – Matt 5:7

Discernment on the other hand (Matt 7:15-20) is recognition. Because of your testimony and the fruits of the Spirit I see in you, I call you my sister in Christ.

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? - I Cor 6:19

As another example, we discern the body and blood of Christ with the bread and the cup.

But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. - I Cor 11:28-30

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

For the body is not one member, but many. - I Cor 12:12-14

Spiritual discernment is like a different language. The natural man cannot hear it or understand it.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Cor 2:13-14

To God be the glory, not man, never man!

[caww]

Found this reading comments at a web site....interesting summary on how Muslim God was named Allah...

champ | January 21, 2010 4:17 PM | Reply
“It is clear, from a historical point of view, that Muhammad, as a youth participated in worshipping all the 360 pagan gods in the Kabah in Mecca owned and operated by the Quraish tribe to which Muhammad was member in good standing. As Muhammad grew up, he was influenced by Christians (monotheists) who condemned the polytheism at the Kabah. At some point in Muhammad’s life, he was convinced by the Christians that Polytheism was wrong and sought to reject the 360 pagan gods he had grown up with. Muhammad was converted to the concept of monotheism through the influence and teachings of Christians. However, being a proud “nationalistic cultural Arab”, bent to preserve his traditions, Muhammad, decided to “reform” his native pagan religion, rather than adopt a completely different religion like Christianity. So Muhammad took the top pagan god of the Kabah in Mecca (called Hubal and/or Allah) and chose it to be his new monotheistic god. This god was already considered the top god among other gods at the Kabah. Muhammad’s strategy was simple. Rather than converting all the Arab people to the monotheism of Christianity, Muhammad merely banished the other 359 pagan gods and chose the one remaining to be the one and only god... what Muslims refer to today as “Allah”. Thus Islam was born.”

“Islam Is Paganism In Monotheistic Wrapping Paper.”

Above excerpt from link:
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-polytheism.htm

[Titanites]

Be careful with frothing fingers. They're dripping all over the thread and
making a mess.

[Titanites]

I gather reading comprehension on those posts is still a troubling work in progress.

Gather all you want. I'm not the one identifying a specific place where a "mental altar" is located.

[betty boop]

...the whole doctrine of separation would make for an interesting discussion. I would love to hear more about what is meant by that term.

Indeed, dearest sister in Christ, the doctrine of separation would make for an interesting discussion!

We grasp the concept of "separation" easily. But it is uncommon nowadays to ask about the "terms" of the separation.

To me, there are finally only two terms: (1) matter; (2) spirit.

Our Lord gives us this prime clue at Genesis 2:7:

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Both matter — the formative "dust of the ground" or material condition of life; and spirit — the divine "breath of life" as mediated by individual human souls — are necessary to the constitution of your average human being....

Or was there some other sense of "separation" that I missed?

I don't believe the Lord intended these two as separable in finite incarnate existence. Rather, they should dynamically "resonate together" for as long as mortal conditions permit....

IOW, while the vital communication lasts, the recipient of the communication is alive....

Just some weird thoughts late at night.

Thank you so very much, dearest sister in Christ, for your outstanding essay/post!

[Quix]

THANKS for the fascinating link. His body & bones certainly seem to have had a dramatic to rough go of it in death! LOL.

As a matter of belief and habit . . .

I TEND to extend a lot of grace to accounts from reliable sounding folks . . . particularly those which 'include a witness in my spirit' on encountering them spoken or read.

I do so regarding those accounts from all Trinitarian Christian belief systems--including Roman Catholicism et al.

By the same token, it is somewhat disturbing to read so many . . . frankly outlandish things . . . which seemingly so many 'faithful' take as Gospel TRUTH or 98.95% Gospel Truth--when to me they are outrageous to horrific claims, if not devilish DECEPTIONS, myths.

I realize that the Vatican has an extensive process through which to vet accounts.

I'm not impressed. I've watched vetting processes in Pentecostal circles as well as other denominations.

Certainly I Cor 14 is a Biblical standard for such a vetting process in terms of Holy Spirit led pronouncements in a common congregational service. And I believe in the vetting process quite strongly. I think it's the best we have.

However, I do NOT believe that THAT process NOR the Vatican process can routinely overcome human failings.

In terms of Pentecostal et al AS WELL AS ALL OTHER Christian circles . . .

1. leadership biases;
2. political or perceived social star status of leaders or those giving such pronouncements;

3. GROUP THINK in the local group;
4. current trends in Pentecostalism (or whatever IN-GROUP is involved);

5. personal bias; customs of that particular congregation--including customary perspectives;
6. emotional intensity being taken for Holy Spirit's intensity;

7. Spiritual, organizational and/or relational pedigree, source or loftiness of a particular educational training, level of training or 'erudition' of those involved;
8. a certain particular theological and/or emotional and/or even truly spiritual context in Christianity at large or in the local congregation lending itself to a particular interpretation or sensibility;

. . . all can contribute to a contaminated assessment of a given pronouncement purportedly from God.

I realize that non-Pentecostal Evangelicals will be likely to rise up and exclaim most forcefully about SEE!!! THAT'S NOT SOLA SCRIPTURA and is therefore not only suspect but automatically anathama. Tough tacos. That's NOT Biblical, to me, either. And, I've personally experienced very powerfully and intensely otherwise--as LATER CONFIRMED BY DRAMATIC, TANGIBLE LIFE EVENTS.

Scripture does not include careful instructions about which person to marry; which car or house to buy; which job to take or whether to move to a different town or country or not. Yet, I have found that God Almighty cares quite deeply for countless more shallow decisions and decision points in our lives than those. He is quite willing to give HIS INPUT on such matters if we are focused on Him and seeking His input as His Scriptures instruct.

So the issue of WHETHER such inputs CAN BE AUTHENTICALLY from God IS NOT a problem to me as a class of phenomena.

They are, however, also not automatically taken at face value in all cases.

I believe that I Cor 14 is the standard Biblical vetting procedure. However, I believe that many things authentically and responsibly vetted accordingly--must also wait the test of time and OVERT CONFIRMATION FROM THE LORD IN OBVIOUSLY TANGIBLE WAYS--before being taken as clear and reliable truth from Holy Spirit.

GROUP THINK and human emotions, biases, dependencies, needs etc. are soooooo POWERFUL toward distorting things. This is VERY INDEPENDENT of any particular doctrine or denominational structure or any magicsterical oversight group. I have observed that virtually all the groups I've been in or observed or read about, regardless of denomination, . . . ALL SUCH GROUPS . . . ALL CHRISTIAN GROUPS OF HUMANS . . . are VERY VULNERABLE to such distortions of inputs from Holy Spirit regardless or virtually regardless of how the inputs come.

Now I haven't seen any such inputs arrive by a big hand writing on a wall--thankfully--given the last such message. Nor have I seen a literal burning bush. I suppose that SOME miraculous manifestations would tip the scales obviously and overtly over the line into OBVIOUSLY FROM GOD.

Though in many contexts--involving "Heavenly messengers," we are Scripturally exhorted to check whether they agree that Jesus came in the flesh etc.

However, I believe we are living in the END TIMES AND that satan is going to be allowed to 'miraculously' (as Scripture indicates) manifest dramatic things to deceive folks not putting God first--even using "angels of light" who must be vetted per the above criteria--Jesus coming in the flesh.

And, I know (i.e. I'm as certain as one can be without being trained in such technologies) that the globalists already have technologies in their arsenal which can easily PRODUCE "SPIRITUAL" SEEMING MANIFESTATIONS IN GROUPS AND IN INDIVIDUALS' MINDS.

It's more than a little plausible that fallen angels have had such capacities through the centuries.

Regardless, imho, vetting such phenomena is likely, in many cases, to become HARDER, not easier.

I do NOT think that THAT should become occasion for running the other direction and denying or avoiding such phenomena and their proper vetting.

The complex days, months and likely several years that are looming . . . will NEED DIRECT GUIDANCE FROM HOLY SPIRIT such as when to stay; when to go; where to stay; where to go; how to prepare; what to leave; what to go to; etc. And GOD HAS PROMISED TO NEVER LEAVE US NOR FORSAKE US AND TO LEAD AND GUIDE US. He IS FAITHFUL IN ALL HIS promises.

We don't want to be like the blokes in the joke on the house top in the flood who resisted the canoe, the motor boat and the helicopter and complained that God didn't come for them.

Personally, I think HIS PRIORITY IS THAT WE LEARN TO HEAR AND DISCERN HIS STILL SMALL VOICE IN HIS INDIVIDUALLY UNIQUE WAYS OF SPEAKING TO US IN THE CONTEXT OF OUR RELATIONSHP WITH HIM.

imho, there's a time for applying I Cor 14 in a group setting--routinely, I think that's crucial and fitting.

However, there's also a time to ignore EVERYONE ELSE IN ONE'S TRUSTED REFERENCE GROUP (EVEN) AND HEARING AND TRUSTING AND OBEYING GOD ALONE.

Moses did not check with all his buddies and wives about whether to listen to God in the burning Bush, or not. And, I think: Neither did Noah, Elisha, John the Baptist, or Paul, usually.

And, I don't think there's a hard fast rule or set of rules that makes all such "safe." The only safety is the arms of Jesus.

It is not safely reliable to resist such inputs. It is not safely reliable to be gullible toward all such inputs. I've been disciplined firmly on both ends of that continuum.

CHRIST MADE CLEAR THAT HIS SHEEP WILL HEAR HIS VOICE. If that's not happening--people are either NOT HIS SHEEP or are NOT LISTENING. I think that's an inescapable and obvious--and important Biblical conclusion--all the more so in this era when we ALL SERIOUSLY NEED to be able to hear THE STILL SMALL INNER VOICE OF THE LORD.

Nevertheless, a number of assertions in John Ferraro's book as well as a lot of assertions from folks like Benny Hin, Pat Robertson, to some, even Jesse Du Plantis et al would justify more than the usual Calvinist clique screaming THROW IT ALL OUT.

And it's SIMPLER to throw the baby out with the bath.

But that's NOT what God says to do. He says to discern . . . and to hold fast that which is good.

Sometimes discerning the GOOD really does seem to entail the near impossible task of picking fly specks out of the pepper. Alas, imho, we have no choice.

HE IS AFTER ALL, TRAINING US TO RULE AND REIGN WITH CHRIST. Dare we ignore or resist such training?

I think NOT.