Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
Oh, Iscool, what would I do without at least one post a week from you getting everything wrong in it?
Matthew 4: 1 1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. 2 He fasted for forty days and forty nights, 2 and afterwards he was hungry. 3 The tempter approached and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become loaves of bread." 4 3 He said in reply, "It is written: 'One does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes forth from the mouth of God.'"
The red letters tell me that one lives by every word that comes forth from the mouth of God. Not the words of men. Sometimes I think that you are a Catholic plant. chuckling Remember when you claimed that Antioch was in Syria?
For my not so eschatolgically interested FRiends:
Rom. 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
As far as the discussion of election goes the words "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" makes it clear that God has already determined who all the saved Gentiles will be.
We have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.... He who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2:12-16).
Thanks. I thought of a different post.
What you quoted from me is, of course, not an explanation or interpretation of Hebrews 12:1 at all. It is what the Church teaches on sainthood and on the last days, but it is not merely an interpretation of one verse, or even many verses.
I would be the first to admit that the Catholic Church does not derive its teaching from the Scripture by way of interpreting scripture. Rather, she has the teaching from Christ Who taught the Apostles, known as the Holy Tradition. That entire Holy Tradition, the Sacred Deposit of Faith is what gets interpreted and applied to the changing times. The Holy Scripture is one way to teach among many, and the Scripture itself was produced by the Church faithful to the knowledge already received from non-scriptural sources. The lives of the saints, for example, are not scripture but they teach us by their example, and often their magisterial teaching. The outward form of the Catholic liturgy (its essence is supernatural encounter with Christ) is to be sure, textually nearly entirely scripture, but it intentionally has musical and artistic dimension because that, too is a teaching tool of the Church.
So it is a very different system than the Protestant exegetical system based on the Bible alone.
Especially, on the veneration of saints, the scriptural support is scant. This is natural, because both mass adoption of Christianity and mass martyrdom of saints occurred after the canonical Scripture was written.
You might notice that in my frequent references to the Holy Scripture, I stay in the perimeter of things that I am convinced Protestantism erred greatly: issues of justification, sacramental, liturgical and hierarchical nature of the Church, role of faith and works, — all things that are amply elucidated in the Scripture. Luckily, the Protestants happen to also profess very high regard for the scripture and my job is thereby easy.
But should anyone ask me why Catholics teach certain things about the saints, liturgy, civil society, sexual morality, rules of war, celibacy and monasticism and I will admit to you that these are not things covered by the scripture very well. Thewy sure do not contradict the scripture, but they do not derive from it.
So, in short, we play the game a little bit differently than you guys.
Yes, I would agree. You can't repent unless it is from God.
Think of it this way, if a person rationally, logically came to a point in their life where they understood that they have a choice of eternal bliss which would be beyond our wildest imagination or the eternal hell fires of damnation which do you think he would choose? What choice would he make? There is really only ONE "choice" that they will make, there is only one way they will go.
4. We must make us a new heart and a new spirit. This was the matter of a promise, ch. xi. 19.
Absolutely. And this ties back to Augustine's prayer, "Command what you will and grant what you command." We can only make us a new heart and spirit if it is granted to us by the Father as the other verse in Ezekial states.
It's like why do you pray when God already knows what you need? Why do you need to ask for wisdom when God already knows you need wisdom? Why do you need to ask to understand the scriptures when God already wants you to understand the scriptures? It is simply because even though God has commanded all of these things from us, He has not necessarily granted them to us. This is the very nature of God and the brilliance of Augustine to discern this trait. If one understands this, then many of the seemingly "conflicts" of scriptures disappear.
If anything, Ezekial 18 adds to the FW side, saying, “32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.”
I have no argument with your interpretation here. God is constantly calling to people to repent. People just don't listen. They want to go their own way. They are dead and can't hear or see the things of God. Yet God keeps calling to those people to repent. Just like He did with the people of Noah's time until He closed the door of the ark. They were without excuse. This is the justice of God and God was perfectly fair.
God must actively intervene in our lives to make us listen to Him. We have to be born again. He has to open our eyes and ears. When He does do you think we will want the eternal fires of damnation? Of course not. We will move to Him. He opens our eyes/ears. He calls us to repent. He gives us godly wisdom to make the right decision. He gives us faith to trust in Him. Just like He did with Paul. This is the grace and mercy of God.
God calls all men in the same way. He called Abraham somehow. He called Moses through a bush. He called Samuel through a small voice. He called Jacob through a dream. He call Peter and John and Matthew by simply going up to them and saying "Follow me" (they left everything). He called Nathanael through Philip. He called Paul on the Damascus Road. He called Cornellius by an angel. On and on.
Our salvation is no different than Moses or Philip or Paul. In some cases it may have been dramatic like Paul. In other cases it might have been uneventful like Nathanael. But is all cases it is God who seeks us out and saves us.
The red letters tell me that one lives by every word that comes forth from the mouth of God.
Nope...That's where you err, again...
Jesus did not stop talking after He died on the Cross...Jesus talked to many people after He was risen, and He talked to Paul the Apostle...
And Paul taught us what he was taught from Jesus...
The Holy Spirit brought to remembrance all that Jesus taught and did...
The adoption of the Gentiles into the church and the gospel of grace were revealed by Paul...You don't put much stock in that either???
By what means do you claim that you are of those that Paul is speaking of? Also, why do you not use the words of Christ? Surely Christ is sufficient for you, no?
“”Do you really think God did not plan the creation or the cross?””
If God knows everything from eternity and can not be moved according to James 1:17 what is there to plan?
Everything was done in one NOW from eternity, you just perceive things like time and succession in human terms because your bound to time, but God is able to see Jan 14 year 1”, all the way to the last month and year and to 2085 etc.... Thus, God’s view of time is all-encompassing. He sees all time as one present event
Do you believe God willed man to sin? If so, sin is part of God’s essence and God is not perfection.
You need to come to the realization that God’s reaction to man’s sin is simultaneous with creation or God would be moved or change that is at odds with James 1:17
Actually, it is one of the few things that I understand perfectly.
IMO-It is one of the most evil heresy to ever hit the Church/church. I can trace just about every heresy in the Church's/church's past or now to this evil belief. It deliberately supplants God as our rightful soveign ruler with the false belief that we control the shots. We feel we can "save" ourselves. It gives people the idea that they somehow can do "godly" things that pleases God robbing our precious Lord of the rightful glory and honor due Him for HIS work. It pollutes the believers understanding of the scriptures. I am truly sorry that I ever believed this doctrine and I will ask God's forgiveness for my foolishness until the day I die. Sorry but I think this is one of the worst heresy in the Church/church and I am very happy to speak out against this evil belief whenever I have the opportunity.
Was that clear?
The red letters tell me that one lives by every word that comes forth from the mouth of God.
Nope...That's where you err, again...
Me? These are the words of Jesus. If I am in error, then He is in error. Nice try. Batting 1.000 today.
Jesus did not stop talking after He died on the Cross...Jesus talked to many people after He was risen, and He talked to Paul the Apostle...
And? Are the words of Jesus diminished somehow?
And Paul taught us what he was taught from Jesus...
Ah, I see. You are claiming that Jesus was unable to teach us properly and that Paul was the instrument of Christ's teaching since He was incapable of teaching us. You have reached greater depths than even I thought nominal Christians were capable of. Congratulations. Something of a triumph, really.
The adoption of the Gentiles into the church and the gospel of grace were revealed by Paul...You don't put much stock in that either???
Jesus didn't reveal a gospel of Grace? He forgot and Paul reminded Him? Whatever would we do if Jesus got Alzheimer's and Paul wasn't there to correct Him? You put much stock in Paul, but as men go, he wasn't the be all and end all, was he? Which mortal man walked on water? Which mortal man raised the dead first? Which mortal man converted a gentile first? Paul was also; he was not God.
I wish that if you guys were honestly not Christian, you would jettison the title Christian and simply call yourselves Paulians and depart from the Christian fold, as the Paulians were set aside 1700 years ago.
Yes, it’s quite clear.
Your understanding of free will is severely defective.
RnMomof7: “How did they become children of God?Adopted into His family? BY HIS WILL”
Of course. Now, was the MEANS that he made them sons who then believed, or His will was that those who believed became His sons.
As I’ve written ad nauseum, this isn’t about the sovereignty of God, but what His sovereign decision was. And scripture repeatedly tells us “For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Not “To the heart is given belief”, but with the heart one believes and is justified. Nor does it say, “A new heart is given and he believes.”
At some point, one needs to trust the honesty of God in scripture. Does God want all to be saved and come to repentance? Yes. Scripture explicitly says so, and I’ve quoted them. Did Jesus come because God so loved the world, or because God so loved the elect?
God is honest, and I’m appalled some make him a liar. This is not open to debate for a Bible believing Christian. Scripture doesn’t waffle. It isn’t evasive. It isn’t deceptive.
“[God our saviour] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” - 1 Tim 2
“”For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.” - Ezekial 18
“Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” - John 7
Dr E wrote, “God “went to the Jews” to show mankind that no man can keep the law perfectly and therefore all men need a Savior.”
What does scripture SAY? “There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.” - NASB
Although the world was made thru Jesus, he was in the world and the world did not know Him. More, He came to his own...the Chosen People...and those who were His own did not receive Him”. Irresistible grace? He went to the Jews, and they did not receive Him. Only then was the invitation extended to the Gentiles, although it had always been God’s plan to bless the Gentiles thru the Jews.
How did Jesus describe it? “ 1And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.’ 5But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11”But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14For many are called, but few are chosen.” - Matt 22
RnMomof7 writes, “Look who is not hearing
“51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute?” - Acts 7 / They resist the gospel because they can not hear it or understand it..”
But what does it SAY? “you always resist the Holy Spirit”! Not, you cannot understand it, but it lays the blame on them: “you always resist the Holy Spirit”. Not, you cannot, but you DO not...”you always resist the Holy Spirit”!
Again, she writes, “I want your answer.. are you smarter or more clever or holier than those that resist the gospel Mr Rogers? / Your extensive post did not respond to that ...”
Sounds like you want to know how I became a Christian...glad you asked!
When I was a 12 year old USAF brat living in Iceland, the kids I knew and had known on previous bases (we moved yearly) were mean and selfish. To this day, I prefer the company of dogs and horses, but to go on...
Then I met some kids who were NOT that way. My age and a bit older - perhaps 12-15 - they were sometimes mean, but then they apologized for it! One popular girl actually asked me to forgive her for some slight, now long forgotten! They cared about each other, and about me and others they met. And they said it was because of Jesus, and that if I asked God to forgive me and change me, then Jesus would come in to me and change me.
And I knew that whatever it was that made them different, that I wanted to be like them. So I asked God to forgive me, and I asked Jesus to enter my life and change me, and make me his.
And he did.
Why me? Why indeed!
I don’t have a clue.
But I wasn’t alone. My sister and a number of others were changed. A few months later my Dad was sent to Vietnam, and we went to Tucson. Nearly 40 years later, my sister and I are still both changed, and neither of us could tell you anything other than “Praise God!”
Does that have much to do with Free Will / Predestination? Nope! Doctrine comes from scripture, not my experience. Am I proud of anything i “did”? Nope. I’m just thankful I ran into some young Christians, and in their lives I saw Jesus!
Dr E writes, “So your answer is what? What makes someone hear the Gospel, repent and believe when the guy next door doesn’t?”
Scripture teaches some are proud. It teaches some have great need. The Great Physician said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” - Matt 9:9-13
I guess there are a couple of possibilities for how we come to be saved. It could be we, in all humility, and filled with love for our fellow man, ‘win life’s lottery’. Or it could be we are sick, and need a physician. I was sick.
And please don’t inundate me with scriptures saying I was dead - I’m using the analogy of Jesus Christ! ANALOGIES. Pictures of the truth. As Mad Dawg points out, we need to be careful with out imagery. Although many here wouldn’t believe a ‘filthy papist’ like Mad Dawg could EVER get anything right. I’m kind of surprised myself! ;>)
RnMomof7 writes, “Romans 13:Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.”
That is what my Great-great back 8 generations ancestor said during the Revolutionary War. He was tarred and feathered and carried out of town on a rail, and his house burned down. But I come of stubborn lines - he never changed his mind, and after the war moved back and resumed printing and preaching.
RnMomof7 writes to me, “Ohhh so you are more humble than the man who doesn’t come? / You don’t think you are a bit more spiritual too?? Just a little smarter to take the offer of eternal life and escape from the pit of hell?”
I’ll let others read and interpret motives. But yes, I knew I needed something, and I saw that something in the Christians I met. Pity I don’t see as much of it here on these boards...I wonder how many lurkers have read some of these threads, and decided Jesus COULDN’T be the answer.
But no, I’ve never taken pride in being pathetic and needing a saviour. And based on these boards, I’d say God’s New Chosen People should be careful about throwing stones at suspected prideful people!
Running On Empty wrote, “It is work to respond to grace. It is work to love our neighbor. It is work to avoid sin. It is work to live the Beatitudes. It is work to “take up our cross and follow Him”, and Iscool responded, “OF course it’s not a work...You are distorting the term work apparently to justify your faith/works set-up...”
I like Iscool and enjoy reading his posts, but I disagree. Paul wrote, “ 24Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. 27But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” - 1 Cor 9
That doesn’t sound to me like Paul was sitting back and enjoying the ride God gave him. It also doesn’t mean he was working to earn salvation, but that love of God and man compelled him to serve the Gospel, and he did so to the uttermost of his ability, while knowing “For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.”
RnMomof7 writes to Mad Dawg, “I have not ever told anyone to repent here on FR or any forum because I believe that it is God that calls on men to repent.”
Hope she doesn’t tell Peter! “38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” - Acts 2
Of course, Peter was a heretic and blasphemer, who didn’t believe in the sovereignty of God, since he told them, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation”!
Dr E writes, “That’s why Calvinists consider Arminians to be pretty presumptuous and even prideful. And why Arminianism is the road back to Rome since Rome, like you said you do, denies election in favor of men’s own prudent “free will.”
Let’s see...I’ve denied being an Arminian, since I believe in the eternal security of the believer. Besides, I’ve never read a word of Armin. And many Catholics here have made it clear they are insulted when someone writes of “Rome’ instead of the Catholic Church. I guess when you believe in the lottery system of salvation, you don’t have to care how your words affect people - or even call them to repent.
But Paul sure didn’t take that approach, and neither did Peter. Pity they didn’t understand the scriptures, the way some do today!
RnMomof7 writes, “They were elect for a specific purpose.”
As are we. “4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.” - Ephesians 1
We are elect FOR A PURPOSE. We are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.
And note what follows shortly after: “13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”
“When you heard the word of truth...and believed in him, [you] were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” When the heard and believed, they received the Holy Spirit. But PD teach that we are born again first, and THEN believe.
1000 silverlings writes, “Only God saves and He chooses whom to save, and we know this because He says so”.
Yes...and who does he chose to save?
“14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” - John 3
He also wrote, “Men can’t change their own nature, no matter how hard they try.” I haven’t claimed otherwise. God seeks us, we do not seek Him. But we can chose to wallow in the mud...
Alamo-Girl wrote a post I agree with. When we respond to God’s touch, we are born again, and what was a burden becomes a delight. Sometimes. And sometimes, it remains work, just as it is work sometimes to take the garbage out. Love is a command to obey, not a feeling. The feelings follow.
RnMomof7 writes to wagglebee, “Do you even read the scriptures in a systematic way? Do you study the word? Do you look to the greek and hebrew?Do you look to the history and form of the scriptures..When you do come talk to me”
I’ll let those who read decide if it was written in love or pride.
1000 silverlings writes, “It reminds me also of children. I don’t know about the rest of you but as children of my parents, we weren’t allowed to have “free will”. In fact, we were strongly encouraged not to have any, lol”
Different upbringing, I guess. My Dad WANTED me to develop judgment, and he WANTED me to make decisions, knowing some of the would be wrong.
Years after his death in Vietnam, as a US Air Force officer, I took the same approach with the men under me. I wanted them to develop judgment, and use their ingenuity and skill to find solutions. And that meant accepting some mistakes and errors. But in the end, most of the really good things I accomplished in 25 years came from letting my guys off the leash.
RnMomof7 writes, “Actually we probable have fewer differences that the people sitting at mass with you on Sunday have from the church and each other...”
I’m noticing a trend...
However, I would appreciate it if wagglebee would make a distinction between churches believing in sola scriptura and Protestant churches in general. The ones who don’t give a rat’s rear end about scripture give a bad name to those that do.
MarkBsnr wrote, “Jesus is our Lord God Almighty. Paul was a man. So was Moses and Abraham and David. I do not put their words on the same level as those of God’s.”
Then you err. ALL scripture is “God-breathed”. It is the breath of God. Did Paul write Romans? Yes. Did God write Romans? Yes. 100% Paul. 100% God. Deal with it.
Whew! Spend a day away, and fall far behind...and I REFUSE to go back and proofread it all! Hope ther are not to miny spelling airers.
Yes and I even go to Mass most every morning even when I am traveling as well, I also spend time at Adoration in prayer in the actual True Presence Our Blessed Lord. I don't have to wait to go tho church 1 day a week to hear pastor Chucky read his personal interpretations of Scripture that he learned from the "do it my way" theological seminary
“If you truly believe in free will, then you must agree with Nancy Peloski when she said that she’s a Catholic and she can exercise her free will to believe in abortion.”
You are better than that, HarleyD!
Amen to your beautiful post b-d. For once I’m speechless. It’s a miracle!!!!
God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth...And immediately change it to:
God must grant a person the ability to repent which leads to the truth.It doesn't say MUST. You've changed it to MUST.
Are we supposed to just not notice this?
Thanks much for understanding my post re: “work”.
I’m glad someone got it.
That's alright it's not Harley's fault because he has no free will,so it was God who planned it,Harley's off the hook
It had better be an inferiority complex or you’ll never get it.
Here’s a nice little shortcut to understanding Biblical Christianity: Guilt, Grace, and Gratitude.
If you understand your position before God (Guilt) and yet love God for what he did in Jesus (Grace) then you have only gratitude for what he did.
Hey,, I still claim it and you still err...
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