RnMomof7: “How did they become children of God?Adopted into His family? BY HIS WILL”
Of course. Now, was the MEANS that he made them sons who then believed, or His will was that those who believed became His sons.
As I’ve written ad nauseum, this isn’t about the sovereignty of God, but what His sovereign decision was. And scripture repeatedly tells us “For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Not “To the heart is given belief”, but with the heart one believes and is justified. Nor does it say, “A new heart is given and he believes.”
At some point, one needs to trust the honesty of God in scripture. Does God want all to be saved and come to repentance? Yes. Scripture explicitly says so, and I’ve quoted them. Did Jesus come because God so loved the world, or because God so loved the elect?
God is honest, and I’m appalled some make him a liar. This is not open to debate for a Bible believing Christian. Scripture doesn’t waffle. It isn’t evasive. It isn’t deceptive.
“[God our saviour] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” - 1 Tim 2
“”For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.” - Ezekial 18
“Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” - John 7
Dr E wrote, “God “went to the Jews” to show mankind that no man can keep the law perfectly and therefore all men need a Savior.”
What does scripture SAY? “There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.” - NASB
Although the world was made thru Jesus, he was in the world and the world did not know Him. More, He came to his own...the Chosen People...and those who were His own did not receive Him”. Irresistible grace? He went to the Jews, and they did not receive Him. Only then was the invitation extended to the Gentiles, although it had always been God’s plan to bless the Gentiles thru the Jews.
How did Jesus describe it? “ 1And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.’ 5But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11”But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14For many are called, but few are chosen.” - Matt 22
RnMomof7 writes, “Look who is not hearing
“51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute?” - Acts 7 / They resist the gospel because they can not hear it or understand it..”
But what does it SAY? “you always resist the Holy Spirit”! Not, you cannot understand it, but it lays the blame on them: “you always resist the Holy Spirit”. Not, you cannot, but you DO not...”you always resist the Holy Spirit”!
Again, she writes, “I want your answer.. are you smarter or more clever or holier than those that resist the gospel Mr Rogers? / Your extensive post did not respond to that ...”
Sounds like you want to know how I became a Christian...glad you asked!
When I was a 12 year old USAF brat living in Iceland, the kids I knew and had known on previous bases (we moved yearly) were mean and selfish. To this day, I prefer the company of dogs and horses, but to go on...
Then I met some kids who were NOT that way. My age and a bit older - perhaps 12-15 - they were sometimes mean, but then they apologized for it! One popular girl actually asked me to forgive her for some slight, now long forgotten! They cared about each other, and about me and others they met. And they said it was because of Jesus, and that if I asked God to forgive me and change me, then Jesus would come in to me and change me.
And I knew that whatever it was that made them different, that I wanted to be like them. So I asked God to forgive me, and I asked Jesus to enter my life and change me, and make me his.
And he did.
Why me? Why indeed!
I don’t have a clue.
But I wasn’t alone. My sister and a number of others were changed. A few months later my Dad was sent to Vietnam, and we went to Tucson. Nearly 40 years later, my sister and I are still both changed, and neither of us could tell you anything other than “Praise God!”
Does that have much to do with Free Will / Predestination? Nope! Doctrine comes from scripture, not my experience. Am I proud of anything i “did”? Nope. I’m just thankful I ran into some young Christians, and in their lives I saw Jesus!
Dr E writes, “So your answer is what? What makes someone hear the Gospel, repent and believe when the guy next door doesn’t?”
Scripture teaches some are proud. It teaches some have great need. The Great Physician said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” - Matt 9:9-13
I guess there are a couple of possibilities for how we come to be saved. It could be we, in all humility, and filled with love for our fellow man, ‘win life’s lottery’. Or it could be we are sick, and need a physician. I was sick.
And please don’t inundate me with scriptures saying I was dead - I’m using the analogy of Jesus Christ! ANALOGIES. Pictures of the truth. As Mad Dawg points out, we need to be careful with out imagery. Although many here wouldn’t believe a ‘filthy papist’ like Mad Dawg could EVER get anything right. I’m kind of surprised myself! ;>)
RnMomof7 writes, “Romans 13:Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.”
That is what my Great-great back 8 generations ancestor said during the Revolutionary War. He was tarred and feathered and carried out of town on a rail, and his house burned down. But I come of stubborn lines - he never changed his mind, and after the war moved back and resumed printing and preaching.
RnMomof7 writes to me, “Ohhh so you are more humble than the man who doesn’t come? / You don’t think you are a bit more spiritual too?? Just a little smarter to take the offer of eternal life and escape from the pit of hell?”
I’ll let others read and interpret motives. But yes, I knew I needed something, and I saw that something in the Christians I met. Pity I don’t see as much of it here on these boards...I wonder how many lurkers have read some of these threads, and decided Jesus COULDN’T be the answer.
But no, I’ve never taken pride in being pathetic and needing a saviour. And based on these boards, I’d say God’s New Chosen People should be careful about throwing stones at suspected prideful people!
Running On Empty wrote, “It is work to respond to grace. It is work to love our neighbor. It is work to avoid sin. It is work to live the Beatitudes. It is work to “take up our cross and follow Him”, and Iscool responded, “OF course it’s not a work...You are distorting the term work apparently to justify your faith/works set-up...”
I like Iscool and enjoy reading his posts, but I disagree. Paul wrote, “ 24Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. 27But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” - 1 Cor 9
That doesn’t sound to me like Paul was sitting back and enjoying the ride God gave him. It also doesn’t mean he was working to earn salvation, but that love of God and man compelled him to serve the Gospel, and he did so to the uttermost of his ability, while knowing “For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.”
RnMomof7 writes to Mad Dawg, “I have not ever told anyone to repent here on FR or any forum because I believe that it is God that calls on men to repent.”
Hope she doesn’t tell Peter! “38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” - Acts 2
Of course, Peter was a heretic and blasphemer, who didn’t believe in the sovereignty of God, since he told them, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation”!
Dr E writes, “That’s why Calvinists consider Arminians to be pretty presumptuous and even prideful. And why Arminianism is the road back to Rome since Rome, like you said you do, denies election in favor of men’s own prudent “free will.”
Let’s see...I’ve denied being an Arminian, since I believe in the eternal security of the believer. Besides, I’ve never read a word of Armin. And many Catholics here have made it clear they are insulted when someone writes of “Rome’ instead of the Catholic Church. I guess when you believe in the lottery system of salvation, you don’t have to care how your words affect people - or even call them to repent.
But Paul sure didn’t take that approach, and neither did Peter. Pity they didn’t understand the scriptures, the way some do today!
RnMomof7 writes, “They were elect for a specific purpose.”
As are we. “4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.” - Ephesians 1
We are elect FOR A PURPOSE. We are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.
And note what follows shortly after: “13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”
“When you heard the word of truth...and believed in him, [you] were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” When the heard and believed, they received the Holy Spirit. But PD teach that we are born again first, and THEN believe.
1000 silverlings writes, “Only God saves and He chooses whom to save, and we know this because He says so”.
Yes...and who does he chose to save?
“14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” - John 3
He also wrote, “Men can’t change their own nature, no matter how hard they try.” I haven’t claimed otherwise. God seeks us, we do not seek Him. But we can chose to wallow in the mud...
Alamo-Girl wrote a post I agree with. When we respond to God’s touch, we are born again, and what was a burden becomes a delight. Sometimes. And sometimes, it remains work, just as it is work sometimes to take the garbage out. Love is a command to obey, not a feeling. The feelings follow.
RnMomof7 writes to wagglebee, “Do you even read the scriptures in a systematic way? Do you study the word? Do you look to the greek and hebrew?Do you look to the history and form of the scriptures..When you do come talk to me”
I’ll let those who read decide if it was written in love or pride.
1000 silverlings writes, “It reminds me also of children. I don’t know about the rest of you but as children of my parents, we weren’t allowed to have “free will”. In fact, we were strongly encouraged not to have any, lol”
Different upbringing, I guess. My Dad WANTED me to develop judgment, and he WANTED me to make decisions, knowing some of the would be wrong.
Years after his death in Vietnam, as a US Air Force officer, I took the same approach with the men under me. I wanted them to develop judgment, and use their ingenuity and skill to find solutions. And that meant accepting some mistakes and errors. But in the end, most of the really good things I accomplished in 25 years came from letting my guys off the leash.
RnMomof7 writes, “Actually we probable have fewer differences that the people sitting at mass with you on Sunday have from the church and each other...”
I’m noticing a trend...
However, I would appreciate it if wagglebee would make a distinction between churches believing in sola scriptura and Protestant churches in general. The ones who don’t give a rat’s rear end about scripture give a bad name to those that do.
MarkBsnr wrote, “Jesus is our Lord God Almighty. Paul was a man. So was Moses and Abraham and David. I do not put their words on the same level as those of God’s.”
Then you err. ALL scripture is “God-breathed”. It is the breath of God. Did Paul write Romans? Yes. Did God write Romans? Yes. 100% Paul. 100% God. Deal with it.
Whew! Spend a day away, and fall far behind...and I REFUSE to go back and proofread it all! Hope ther are not to miny spelling airers.
Thanks much for understanding my post re: “work”.
I’m glad someone got it.
I can see why this thread is over 3000 responses long, we keep rehashing the same arguments. I stopped interjecting a few days ago because of how futile it seems. I think there have been some amazing thoughts presented and I have learned a few things, so for that, I am grateful. I wish we could get to the point where we agree to disagree and move on without getting hurtful, prideful and hateful. We should never forget others read and we never hear from them. I would hope my posts could be as knowledgeable and forgiving as your's have been. You set a good example. I'm growing somewhat fonder of MadDawg’s, as well. :o)
Then I met some kids who were NOT that way. My age and a bit older - perhaps 12-15 - they were sometimes mean, but then they apologized for it! One popular girl actually asked me to forgive her for some slight, now long forgotten! They cared about each other, and about me and others they met. And they said it was because of Jesus, and that if I asked God to forgive me and change me, then Jesus would come in to me and change me.
And I knew that whatever it was that made them different, that I wanted to be like them. So I asked God to forgive me, and I asked Jesus to enter my life and change me, and make me his.
Quix recently posted a story about some children in Europe just striking out on their own, witnessing about Jesus. May God bless them and guide them!
Perhaps I'm so joyful over your testimony and this new mission because it "hits home."
I am a bakery shop kid. And that’s why labels mean nothing to me.
You see waaay back in the 50’s, when I was in elementary school, several of us kids would meet after school in the local bakery shop while they were cleaning up. The owners would give us drinks and left-over goodies. We’d bring our Bibles, read and just talk about Jesus. My older sister – now in heaven – was always the ring leader.
It so happened that an old retired Baptist preacher heard about the bakery shop kids and came by to meet us. He was moved by what he saw and he used his life’s savings to build a tiny little church up the street.
Naturally all the kids got the rest of their families to join them in meeting in the new church – and before you knew it we were all baptized Southern Baptist. The church grew and split and had missionary churches of it own.
If it had been someone from another Christian “label” who found the bakery shop kids, built the church and baptized us, I’d probably be wearing a different label today. LOLOL!
As it is my "letter" has always been in a Baptist church, though that point is meaningless to me because at the root, I will always be that bakery shop kid – a Christian, plain and simple.
God’s Name is I AM!
We've all been here for some time and no Protestants call anyone here names,let alone something like that. The ones using those terms are the Catholics. they call themselves those names and infer we did it. I'm sure there is some kind of pschological reason that they do it, but please, if you are indeed a Baptist, don't use those terms when talking about us.
Take something for that and try to calm down.
Nor does it say, "A new heart is given and he believes."
Sure it does, many times in many ways. Men receive a new heart from God in order to believe. Why would someone get a new heart after they have already believed?
I asked Jesus to enter my life and change me, and make me his. Why me? Why indeed! I don?t have a clue.
Sure you do. You just told us. You have less pride than the guy next door who doesn't believe.
Why?