Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[boatbums]

Thank you, FK. I got it. I was really trying on my "peacemaker" hat and say, kinda, "We don't care who you want to pray to, just don't insist you can't be a real Christian if you aren't praying the way we do.". The main point was the insistence that the RCC is the only true church and everybody else is a heretic is the part that gets peoples' goats. k?

[Cronos]

I do believe there is only one true "religion"....exactly which one, is what I am seeking. However, I don't think it's any of our already established religions

Ok, so that's good, you've already established that. You've also established that you read the Bible. I would recommend you also read the Koran, the Gita and the Avestan -- I did and even by pure reason and logic alone, I concluded that Christianity made more sense than these competing religions. However, that's something you need to find out on your own if you wish.

If you already feel drawn to Christianity, then you need to ask yourself if you truly believe in the Nicene Creed, which defines Christianity (Mormonism, Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in the points in this and are not Christian)

Finally, you need to ask yourself about what God is -- just a law-maker, or a judge, or a punisher, or love.

[Cronos]

I lived in England for many years and it’s true that we are separated by our language. I’m now shuttling between India and the Philippines and yes, the same language English is different here — same language, different connotations in 4 different countries.

[Forest Keeper]

FK: Preferring a middleman in prayer necessarily lessens that relationship because communication is less and it is less personal by definition.

So then you never ask anyone to pray for you?

I do all the time, but I don't PREFER it to my own prayer to God. I would NEVER ask someone to pray for me thinking that his prayer will be heard before mine for any reason, (and then not pray myself). That is, I hold that IF I am right with God then no other individual human's prayer, living or departed, on my behalf will have greater weight than my own direct communication with God. God grants the prayers of the "righteous" when they are in agreement with His good pleasure. Therefore, if I am right with God, then how could anyone else's prayer for me count for more? It's not like the other person can give God information that He doesn't already have.

[boatbums]

It may be of some help if you could elucidate what all these ‘lies’ are that are serially being presented.

[annalex]

I have seen your name around long enough, and so I think you should, by now, realize that the Roman Catholic Church does not consider quite a few churches heretical, even though we lack communion with some of them. This thread, for example, considers whether the Orthodox are part of the Catholic Church. It should have bocome clear to you by reading this thread alone, that the Roman Catholic Church does not regard any Orthodox Church as heretical.

If you have questions of who is and who is not a heretic, I will gladly work on the answer, even more so that goats may get slaughtered otherwise.

[Cronos]

My mistake — you answered this that you don’t believe int he Trinity. John 8:54 says “My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me” —> this indicates that God is the FAther of Jesus, so Jesus is the Son of God.

[Quix]

I think, that actually . . .

certainly most of the time . . .

I can handle quite charitably that

THEY THINK they are GOD’S ONLY EVERYTHING GOOD.

Most congregations, if not most individuals think something similar at least occasionally in their lifetimes.

What begins to be . . . grossly underhanded, and even evil, to me,

Is the hyper shrillness wedded to the hyper !!!!CONTROL!!!! Phreaque !!!!DEMANDING!!!! authoritarian stinking piles of arrogance coupled with whining, wailing and running to mommy mods every so many posts—and particularly

THE HORRIFIC DUPLICITOUS, DOUBLE STANDARD hogwash saturating all that 2 year old mentality noise.

I want to scream . . .

GROW UP ALREADY YET and handle this contact sport like balanced, fair-minded, even-handed ADULTS! Sheesh.

Evidently, that’s asking far too much, of those in the rabid cliques.

Thankfully, a lot of Vatican Affiliates seem to handle the task quite well enough.

[Cronos]

1. Total depravity - yes, although most Baptists may define it a bit different than Calvin.
2. Unconditional predestination - for believers to be conformed to His son? Yes. For salvation? Very few - perhaps 5% or less. I suspect most agree with Moody: “The elect are the whosoever wills, the non-elect are the whosoever “won’ts”.”

That's what struck me the most in my discussions with Baptists that they do believe in a loving God that wishes all of us to be saved and also created us in His Holy image.

The Baptism not being a sacrament to the Baptists is a bit strange to me as I had thought that the "timing" of the Baptism is one of the critical differentiators of the Baptist community.

[Petronski]

Read my posting history. There are too many for me to list off the top of my head.

Catholics worship Mary? LIE
Christ is killed over and over again in Holy Eucharist? LIE
Pope Benedict XVI was a Nazi? LIE
Ven. Pope Pius XII did nothing to help the Jews, turned a blind eye to the Holocaust? LIES
The Catholic Church was founded in the fourth century by a pagan? LIE

There are dozens and dozens of them.

[Forest Keeper]

The main point was the insistence that the RCC is the only true church and everybody else is a heretic is the part that gets peoples' goats. k?

Yep, and I agree with you. One funny thing I've learned from my conversations with some Catholics is that to be called a heretic by them is actually the second best thing to be if one does not believe in Apostolic succession. :) That is, (and I invite Catholics to comment) I don't think they would call an LDS a heretic because they don't merit the level of heretic. :)

[Petronski]

So who is it you claim is “preferring a middleman?”

[Forest Keeper]

Ping to 1551.

[Quix]

That’ll be rich!

Brace yourself for the usual litany about how the Vatican Edifice has existed since before Adam was created and by it were all things created . . . wellll . . . at least those things not created by Mary later . . . oh, wait, she’s part of the Vatican Edifice . . . my error . . . and that only those things granted true breath to live by the magicsterical are truly Christian and all else is wholesale and truly evil . . .

etc.
etc.
etc.
etc.

ad barfeum.
/s . . . partially

[Cronos]

I disagree, Mr. R --> if 2. Unconditional predestination - for believers to be conformed to His son? Yes. For salvation? Very few - perhaps 5% or less. I suspect most agree with Moody: “The elect are the whosoever wills, the non-elect are the whosoever “won’ts”.”

3. Limited atonement - No. I honestly have never met a Baptist in the SBC or elsewhere who believes in limited atonement, although they may exist. I have never heard one discuss or teach it.

If Baptists do not believe in the idea of a calvinist god that wrote in a book at the start of time that Piotr will go to heaven while Jan will go to hell, and that you don't believe that Jesus came to save only the Calvinistic "elite" (which signifies a God that is not love) then your beliefs are closer to the Apostolic Church (Orthodox, Catholic, Oriental, Assyrian) and the Lutherans.

Saying that the Baptists don't believe in that concept of god, signifies that you believe more in the Christian God that we believe in, a God of Love.

[Cronos]

That is true, God gave us a living scripture, not a code of conduct like the Muslim Koran.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I have never, ever heard a (Baptist) sermon discuss "TULIP", and have only heard a couple of formal discussions involving predestination.

I take as my Baptist authorities Spurgeon, John Piper and blue-duncan.

Spurgeon and Piper have preached many sermons on T.U.L.I.P. and predestination. I'll link you to some of them if you'd like.

And blue-duncan extolls the meaning and merits of T.U.L.I.P. and predestination like few others I know.

[Forest Keeper]

So who is it you claim is “preferring a middleman?”

No one in particular. I was responding to Boatbums' purely hypothetical statement in 1166. HOWEVER, :), it IS my understanding that on certain subjects a Catholic will turn to "the Saint for that" fully thinking that the prayer by the Saint on his/her behalf will carry greater weight with God than his/her own prayer. If that is true then I would call that preferring a middleman.

[Cronos]

Interesting post. I'll save it for a later read. So, would verse 3 about "Your people" signify only the Jews or also those of Jewish descent or all Christians and Jews?

It could be argued that Jesus came for all mankind, so the statement "Your people" would signify all Christians too who believe Christ came to give us the ability and the freedom to choose God.-- what do you think?

[Cronos]

The dead don't answer our prayers -- they pray to God for us. God answers the prayers.