Posted on 12/16/2009 7:38:57 AM PST by PanzerKardinal
A "Progressive" Anglican church in Auckland New Zealand paid to have this billboard placed near their parish.
Here are some excerpts written by the Vicar, Archdeacon Glynn Cardy on the church's website touting what he did.
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To make the news at Christmas it seems a priest just needs to question the literalness of a virgin giving birth. Many in society mistakenly think that to challenge literalism is to challenge the norms of Christianity. What progressive interpretations try to do however is remove the supernatural obfuscation and delve into the deeper spiritual truth of this festival.
Christian fundamentalism believes a supernatural male God who lived above sent his sperm into the womb of the virgin Mary. Although there were a series of miraculous events surrounding Jesus’ birth – like wandering stars and angelic choirs – the real miracle was his death and literal resurrection 33 years later. The importance of this literal resurrection is the belief that it was a cosmic transaction whereby the male God embraced humanity only after being satiated by Jesus’ innocent blood.
Progressive Christianity is distinctive in that not only does it articulate a clear view it is also interested in engaging with those who differ. Its vision is one of robust engagement. If every Christian thought the same not only would life be deadly boring but also the fullness of God would be diminished. This is the consequence of its incarnational theology: God is among us; even among those we disagree with or dislike.
(Excerpt) Read more at stmatthews.org.nz ...
and just look at the picture; the message is: No man can equal GOD! and Jesus is from God!
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And that is NOT what I see at all. My first response is a reference to the LDS doctrine that Mary was one of God’s wives and that God had sex with Mary to conceive Jesus.
Now, granted, my perspective is different than most Christians (having been Mormon before I became a Christian), but nevertheless I found it offensive at first glance.
The Mormon god is not God. Mormons are bascially pagans and polytheists.
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Agreed. They are also poor re-treads of the early Gnostic heresies.
The Mormon god is not God. Mormons are bascially pagans and polytheists.
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That is why I put God in quotes for the Mormon one, and not for the real one.
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I do not think that we have a disagreement here.
No we do not. I did feel the need to clarify, since I am often confused for being LDS when I post LDS doctrine. lol.
More than once I have had to refer fellow Freepers to my tagline.
:)
post #43 ping.
post #43 ping.
“The same uniformitarianism...” blah, blah, blah... “Laws of nature, you know.”
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Yes, yes, we ‘know’ the laws of nature, but you said it yourself: we rely on the uniformitarian ASSUMPTION. This merely asserts the limits of our knowledge, but does not and cannot command the universe to conform to our understanding. Ultimately, it, too, is a matter of faith, as can be demonstrated by a simple thought experiment.
Let’s say that through a time machine you could monitor Mary for the entire year before the birth of our Lord. In this process, you could not find a single incident that would lead to conception, and yet she gives birth. Would you have ‘proved’ the virgin birth, or would you fall back on your faith in your assumption and say that something natural occurred which we do not as yet understand?
Obviously proof is irrelevant to those who will not believe; the problem is that skeptics fail to understand that they have just as much stubborn faith as anybody else.
How awful. I enjoy rough humor, and even an occasional mildly sacrilegious joke (may God forgive me), but this offends me.
“A literal and fair reading of that billboard is true.”
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Oh, come on. Everyone knows: ‘A double-entendre has only one meaning.’
One doesn’t have to have a dirty mind to get the meaning on an advert for LIVE NUDE GIRLS either.
That billboard has no Christian message whatsoever; just because you don’t want to be seen as judgmental doesn’t change the fact that is is obviously (yet pointlessly) sexual.
I agree.
Mary - perpetual virgin?
THAT offends ME!
The truth is often offensive.
And in the Spirit, the holy, the lordly and life-giving one, proceeding forth from the Father, co-worshipped and co-glorified with Father and Son, the one who spoke through the prophets; in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. We confess one baptism for the forgiving of sins. We look forward to a resurrection of the dead and life in the age to come. Amen.
Sure...Teddy Kennedy professed that...Ms Pelosi claims that...
FACT is: you don't have to know much of anything to become a Christian and if you put baptism and a Church between you and Jesus, you'll likely never will become a Christian...
...and if you put baptism and a Church between you and Jesus, you'll likely never will become a Christian...Sad. Our Lord created His Church for us and He commands His Apostles and their successors to Baptize all the Nations. But Pope Iscool the First decrees otherwise. Very sad.
Well, you're wrong again...Our Lord did not create His church for us...He created us to become His church...
There aren't any succesors to the Apostles...Getting baptized doesn't make one a Christian...Turning to God makes one a Christian...Baptism comes afterward...What sad is you don't seem to know this...
“There aren’t any succesors to the Apostles...”
Says Pope Iscool the First.
Holy Scripture disagrees:
Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ’s own authority.
Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”
Acts 1:22 - literally, “one must be ordained” to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ’s authority.
Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.
Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.
Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.
Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.
Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.
2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.
Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.
1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word “episcopoi” (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.
1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).
1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.
2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.
2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul’s life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.
2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God’s intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.
Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ’s work.
1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).
Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.
Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.
Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally “anointed” priests in “ordination” to minister in the priests’ “office.”
Numbers 16:40 - shows God’s intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.
Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God’s intention that, through the “laying on of hands,” one is commissioned and has authority.
Deut. 34:9 - Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.
Sirach 45:15 - Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.
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