Posted on 12/08/2009 11:41:52 AM PST by Gamecock
I just came from a funeral service for an aunt of mine who was a staunch Catholic. I came out of that religion about 25 years ago after reading for myself what the Bible had to say. My question surrounds the actuality of salvation for all the millions who still practice Mary worship and so forth. Knowing that one cannot serve two masters, I wonder at how it is possible that the aforementioned can really experience Christ in a saving way, while they continue to believe that the church of Rome is solely responsible for their eternal welfare.
Answer:
Greetings in Christ Jesus our Lord and only Savior. Thank you for your question.
Unless a person is clearly outside the pale of the Christian faith, I do not believe that you can judge the "actuality" or "reality" of someone's salvation. You may judge the "credibility" of their faith; or you may question the "probability" of someone's salvation. You may also ask, as you have done, "how it is possible that the aforementioned can really experience Christ in a saving way."
None of us, however, can truly say that we are perfect in knowledge or practice. We are always growing both in wisdom and in the grace of God. Is it possible for someone who prays to Mary to be a true Christian? In other words, can someone who is truly saved be in error on such an issue?
Conscious compromise of God's truth can be serious and deadly, but we also see from Scripture that in his mercy God may (and does) choose to accept less than perfect understanding and obedience, even of his own people. (Indeed, isn't the salvation and the perseverance of the saints dependent upon that fact?) There will be growth in understanding and holiness, but perfection must await our going to be with Jesus or His return to take us unto himself (see 1 John 3:2).
In the Old Testament, consider Asa in 1 Kings 15. He removed the idols from the land, but he allowed the high places to remain. The high places were clearly unacceptable. But the text states that Asa was loyal to the Lord his entire life. How could this be? Had he not seriously compromised?
What about the New Testament? Consider the Corinthians. Was the church at Corinth an exemplary church? Did they not have many doctrinal problems, e.g., concerning the Lord's Supper and the doctrine of the resurrection? (See 1 Cor. 11 and 1 Cor. 15.) Did even the apostles fully understand? Even though what they wrote was protected from error, did they not grow and mature in their own understanding and obedience? Wasn't it necessary at one point, for instance, for Paul to rebuke Peter for his inconsistency? (See Gal. 2.)
My point is not to defend the doctrinal aberrations of Rome. I do not believe such is possible. I think, however, that people generally follow their leaders. They learn from them; they consider their arguments rational and coherent.
For example, consider devotion to Mary. I read Jarislov Pellikan's Mary Through the Centuries and I cannot get past page 10 before I am wondering why the author is so blind to the fallacies of his arguments. However, if I were not being so critical and I were already predisposed to the position, then his arguments would perhaps seem irrefutable. So then, we should boldly, patiently, and compassionately discuss these matters with our loved ones, praying that the Holy Spirit will grant them more understanding.
Whatever we may judge in terms of the "actuality" or "probability" or "possibility" of a person's salvation at the end of life is, in the end, academic, for God is the one who can look at the heart and only he can truly judge. (He is the One, in fact, who has chosen his elect.) "It is appointed to man once to die, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27), but "Today is the day of salvation" (Heb. 3:13). We should work, therefore, the works of him who sent us while it is light and point our neighbors and loved ones to Christ.
For myself, I too was a Roman Catholic. In the past six months, I have attended the funeral of two uncles and one aunt whom I loved very much. I had opportunity at each funeral to speak a word of testimony regarding the Savior. I stood in the pulpit of the church in which I had served mass as a young boy and in my eulogies spoke of my faith in Christ.
Was it as detailed as I wish it could have been? No, but I am thankful for the opportunity God gave. Do I believe that my family members went to heaven? For one I have hope; for the others, I have little hope. Upon what is my hope based? It is always and only grounded in Christ and the Gospel.
We may define Christianity broadly by including as Christians all who confess the Apostles' Creed. We may define Christianity narrowly by including as Christians only those who confess our particular denominational creed. We need to exercise care, because, if we are too narrow, we may find ourselves excluding someone like Augustine. On the other hand, if we are too broad, we may find ourselves including many who should be excluded.
Personally, therefore, I do not judge. I have either greater or lesser hope. For example, I have greater hope for my Roman Catholic family members who ignorantly follow their leaders without thinking. Many times I find these to be at least open to discussion regarding the Gospel. However, I have lesser hope for people who are self-consciously Roman Catholic; that is, they understand the issues yet continue in the way of the Papacy.
I recommend that you read the book Come out from among Them by John Calvin. I found it very helpful and it addresses somewhat the question that you have raised.
I hope that my answer helps. You are free to write for clarification. May our Lord bless you.
ahhhhh
but many RC’s DO have a list of reasons to lie to themselves and others about such . . . to walk in intense denial about such . . . just as folks in all RELIGIONS do, including Protestants.
Ha, in other words, don't pay any attention to what you see, what we do or what you hear...It looks like worship, it quacks like worship, it walks like worship but you just don't understand because you do not have mastery over the Trivial arts, grammar, logic, and rhetoric like we do...
Yep, poor ole simple Protestants just don't understand that asking Mary to provide grace and salvation isn't worship...
“What is it that constitutes worship to Mary which is different than what most of you do???”
Believing that Mary is divine and worshipping her!!!
...Freegards!!!
Ahhhhh . . . I didn’t realize that you had interviewed all 1.x billion RC’s for at least an hour and administerd a battery of quality instruments to determine such a thing.
Very impressive.
chicken or egg?: If I understand congruent merit correctly first comes the effort and then comes the grace.
That old Romanist saying: God helps those who help themselves.
Well put.
Catholics don’t worship Mary. You can tell by the lack of Catholics saying they worship Mary. Catholics are not quiet about what they believe, they will tell you. We even have Catholics on FR who don’t recognize the current Pope. How come they admit that?
Freegards
My point was he says grew up as a Catholic in a Catholic home and his parents and relatives were all practicing Catholics. If that were true he would have referred to himself as a Catholic not a “Roman Catholic”.
That means his story is probably fake.
He also talked about “Mary Worship” a weird term no one familiar with being a Catholic would use.
He also said that after attending the funeral of his aunt his main concern was not his love for her or his memories of her but criticizing her because she remained in the Catholic faith. This also struck me as weird.
There are many people who convert from Catholicism to other religions. That is their personal choice.
I just don't think this story is authentic.
As to poster #2, he was refuting the argument. It sounded like he was just throwing his own words back at him.
I have no idea what you are talking about when you say Catholics play word games but I do not wish to argue about about religion.
My faith is very important to me. Please respect that. Please let us love each other as our savior taught.
You say that but there is a written historical record of your popes denying any such thing...
At some point in time you guys have to reconcile these two opposing positions in regard to your dogma because you come off looking pretty goofy otherwise...
Your popes have on countless occasions claimed that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church...
So, in other words, you're saying that as as long as a poster says "they" and "them," and hides behind pronouns, and never has the courage to spell out exactly who "they" and "them" are, he can say anything he wants about anyone?
Maybe that's what the RM thinks. What does God think?
Your the one saying Catholics worship Mary. I’m saying they don’t because they would say they would. Why wouldn’t they?
Freegards
It would be worship if it were asking Mary to "provide grace and salvation" independent of God, instead of asking Mary to ask God for grace and salvation on my behalf.
"Iscool, pray for me to God that I may be a better and more loving Christian disciple"
There. I just "worshipped" you. Do you feel particularly more divine?
(BTW, my request is not tongue in cheek at all.)
“It seemed like the facts of the post fit a different postulation.”
To which post are you referring?
sitetest
There isn't. Period. Full stop.
There is no Baptist church in heaven, no Presbyterian church in heaven, no SDA church in heaven. There is one, universal church in heaven. If you say it in Greek, it's "katolikos", "catholic".
The relationship of that church to the organization with offices on Vatican hill in Rome is something to debate, but not the proposition that there is no salvation outside the universal church, the ekklesia katolika, founded by Christ.
If you are to be saved (and I hope you are), you will be incorporated into the Catholic church somehow. It may happen in some mysterious way that only God understands and that I couldn't explain to you if I tried, but it will happen.
And if I'm wrong and I still need to be, I hope God gives me that grace also.
God has declared and decreed that folks are to Love Him
super supremely above and beyond all else in thought, feelings, deeds . . . that there be no doubt . . .
I’m not surprised to observe on occasion that some RC’s behave as though they are “prissier than thou’
. . . beyond the RM and beyond God on matters of RULES.
The !!!!TRADITIONS!!!! of men bound, fossilized Vatican institution RELIGION is the paragon example of such prissiness. However, plenty of Protestant orgs are following close behind.
I think those words may have gotten a bit tangled in that post.
Nevertheless, IN-GROUP social and psychological pressures are a sufficient explanation.
Self-righteousness is another.
Having a SYSTEM of rituals and rules one can feel some level of HUMAN !!!!CONTROL!!!! over is another.
There’s a long list of others.
I don’t plan to list them.
The Lord can illuminate those seriously interested in the truth.
"In exercising supreme, full, and immediate power in the universal Church, the Roman pontiff makes use of the departments of the Roman Curia which, therefore, perform their duties in his name and with his authority for the good of the churches and in the service of the sacred pastors."
The description of your "Holy Father":
"The Roman Pontiff, as the successor of Peter, is the perpetual and visible principle and foundation of unity of both the bishops and of the faithful."
I see the phrase "Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae" all over the Vatican's site. That's Latin for "Holy ROMAN Church."
It really is tiring trying to have a conversation with Roman Catholics, who keep trying to squirm away from the truths about their denomination. You speak of "come home to Rome" and publish books like "The Path to Rome" and "Home Sweet Rome," and then claim that there's nothing Roman about your church. Why not embrace the truth that your church finds its home in Rome, when it's so evident that its leaders consider its home to be in Rome?
So....Matt 28:19 is not in your Bible?
Supposedly, we have the strange case of alleged adherents of an alleged "goddess" denying that she is, in fact, a "goddess" at all.
"Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done unto me according to thy word"
Ouch, I just quoted my alleged "goddess" that I supposedly "worship" saying she's just God's servant and wants to do his will. Is she going to be mad about being reminded of that?
But maybe I'm not part of the "they" to whom Quix refers. Am I, Quix? Am I in denial, do I have psychiatric issues, do I have a mommy complex?
Speak up. Where do "they" live? Who are "they"?
It’s not really that important.
I feel clear enough with you.
It’s a tweaky thread from the git-go. And it just struck me that there seemed to be a disconnect somehow.
No biggy.
Have a blessed Christmas.
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