Posted on 11/13/2009 5:37:11 AM PST by marshmallow
The Greek Orthodox Church is urging Christians across Europe to unite in an appeal against a ban on crucifixes in classrooms in Italy.
The European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg ruled last week that the presence of crucifixes violated a child's right to freedom of religion.
Greece's Orthodox Church fears the Italian case will set a precedent.
It has called an emergency Holy Synod meeting for next week to devise an action plan.
Although the Greek Orthodox Church has been at odds with Roman Catholicism for 1,000 years, the judicial threat to Christian symbols has acted as a unifying force.
The European Court of Human Rights found that the compulsory display of crucifixes violated parents' rights to educate their children as they saw fit and restricted the right of children to believe or not to believe.
'Worthy symbols'
The head of the Greek Church, Archbishop Ieronymos, shares Catholic complaints that the court is ignoring the role of Christianity in forming Europe's identity.
It is not only minorities that have rights but majorities as well, said the archbishop.
One of his subordinates, Bishop Nicholas from central Greece, lamented that at this rate youngsters will not have any worthy symbols at all to inspire and protect them.
Football and pop idols are very poor substitutes, he said.
The Greek Church has ostensibly intervened in this case in response to an appeal by a Greek mother whose son is studying in Italy.
But without doubt it is concerned that its omnipotence in Greece is under threa
(Excerpt) Read more at news.bbc.co.uk ...
Not at all. Abortion is a political issue of today, like slavery or emperor deification was in the past. Other dogmas of the Church are not under a direct political threat from the state. Sanctity of life is.
Yes, yes......ohhhhh absolutely!!! We shouldn't confuse "social" and "religious" issues, right?
So if the government decrees that all first born males under the age of two should be put to death, that would be a social issue and thus none of the Church's business.
On the other hand, if the government decrees that a picture of the Dalai Lama be placed in all classrooms, that would be a religious issue and very much the Church's business.
How'm I doin'? Am I starting to "get" the Orthodox mindset yet? Is that how the Orthodox ended up running errands for the KGB because communism was a "social" issue and nothing to do with the Church? Is that how you separate "religious" and "social" in your minds?
Here's a clue, Pontius.
Whenever government policy directly undermines the Church's ministry or teaching, whether it be to do with life issues (abortion) or religious freedom (crucifixes) it absolutely is the Church's business.
Alex, Paul does not differentiate like you do. Ha makes a sweeping generlaization in the very opening of Romans 13 "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God." Nowhere does he say that there are bad governments.
Yes, that is true — but we can think as we read, right?
Other dogmas of the Church are not under a direct political threat from the state. Sanctity of life is
The Church was not sure when abortion becomes murder because there was no teaching as to when the "ensoulment" takes place (read +Augustine's views on that). The Catholic Church did not make its final ruling on that until the 17th century.
Murder is murder whether it is abortion or something else. Sanctity of life is violated when a prisoner is put to death or when you shoot an enemy soldier. That solider is mostly likely a good person with a family of his own and is utterly not responsible for the war that brought you against him. RCC treats abortion as a separate issue. Why? With abortion, there is much more confidence that the little victim will be saved than some sinful solider. Unless of course, you still subscribe to the Limbo...
We should, and when Apostle Paul says all authority is from God and in God's service, that's what it means; we shouldn't invent authority that isn't.
And been rather quiet of late. No doubt some busy work has been found for him to do to keep his attention where it should be.
Other hierarchs in the Latin Church seem to support this heretical position and thus feel free to regularly violate the canons applicable to meddling in the affairs of another bishop’s diocese. I was just informed last Friday evening, however, that the Vatican has decided to put a stop to that activity.
You wouldn't happen to have a link or a website would you? This Pope is just getting better and better.
There are lots of paintings that used real people for models for Christ paintings.
If you have a painting of Christ in a robe by the sea, when someone throws a fit say it is just a portrait of Joe Smith in a robe by the sea. But you really know who it represents.
But then there is this, Christ took on our sins on the Cross, so you might say that the man on the cross actually represents you and me!
Very interesting. And your last point is very well taken. Take up your cross and follow me...
All three manners of killing: war, death penalty, and abortion, are subject to the Catholic moral theology, but al three are different. Abortion stands out compared to the rest for several reasons:
1. The unborn victim is always innocent and so abortion is always evil; the permissibility of the other two forms of killing varies from case to case.
2. The number of victims is in tens of millions in the US alone, worse than any comparable war casualty count.
3. On the death penalty and rules of war, the laws of the land are in rough agreement with moral theology, whereas on abortion we have a gaping divergence between what is moral and what is legal.
Unfortunately, they are correct, marshmallow. Using the Bible to swear an oath of office in a secular nation is hypocritical. If Italy declares itself a religious nation, then it may follow the precepts of that religion. It was formerly understood to be Catholic (although not formerly), although the percentage, like the numbers across Europe, are falling. To restore the crucifixes to all classrooms is relatively simple. Declare Italy a Catholic nation and all state institutions to be Catholic; they could model it on certain Oriental or Muslim state constitutions. Now that could be Catholic or Latin Catholic or Roman Catholic. The principles would be the same.
I say simple, and it would be simple. Easy, on the other hand...
But St. Paul also declares his assumptions: that the princes are not instruments of evil. In other words, so long as the secular government complies with the moral theology, it is legitimate. The implication for secular government being an instrument of evil is left to the reader.
“You wouldn’t happen to have a link or a website would you?”
Nope, I spent most of Friday with a major league Roman Catholic theologian and Vaticanista. I was told this to my face.
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:
Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.
Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment
Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”
According to +Paul (Rom 13:1-2), that would be correct; the government is an instrument of God. The concern of the Church should only be with the health of the souls; to make sure the little ones are all baptized.
On the other hand, if the government decrees that a picture of the Dalai Lama be placed in all classrooms, that would be a religious issue and very much the Church's business
Depends on why his picture was placed in the classroom.
How'm I doin'? Am I starting to "get" the Orthodox mindset yet?
You have to evolve first.
Is that how the Orthodox ended up running errands for the KGB because communism was a "social" issue and nothing to do with the Church?
I don't know. But I do know that about 100,000 Orthodox clergy and nuns, and about 98% of all Orthodox churches in Russia were destroyed. I guess they didn't want to run the KGB errands. Maybe what remained did. Do you have any proof other than a single Lithuanian forgery?
On the other hand, Croatian Catholic clergy, with Cardinal Stepinac's knowledge, managed to even run Ustasha's concentration camps for the fascist government there, let alone some errands.
No one persecuted the Catholic Church in the West, not even the Nazis. The Church got along with everyone...with notable exceptions of course. But the Church did little to save those, so as not to incur the wrath of Germany and suffer the same fate as the Orthodox Churches met by refusing to submit to Islam or Communism. So much for the suffering servant.
Instead, the Vatican chose to have friendly diplomatic relations even with the most abominable and pagan regimes, such as Nazi Germany or such "cathoic" regimes as Franciso Franco's and Benitto Mussolini's.
Here's a clue, Pontius.
Yes, Caiapahas.
Whenever government policy directly undermines the Church's ministry or teaching, whether it be to do with life issues (abortion) or religious freedom (crucifixes) it absolutely is the Church's business
Hmm, and where did you read that? I am sure it wasn't Romans 13 or anywhere else in the Bible.
No, Alex. +Paul says that ALL authority that exists is from God, and govenrments are simply God's insturments and not independent of God's will. Not, some, all princes (or governments).
He also qualifies that in “princes are not a terror to the good work”.
Alex, you keep repeating this, out of context. In context, +Paul is saying that authorities are terror (cause of fear) for those who conduct themselves badly (who are unruly), because the purpose of authority is to keep order and peace.
Calling it like it is, Mark. Spot on.
Hellas, C, as in Ελλας! I'm a Hellene. Alexander the Great said any man can be a Hellene if he embraces our ways.
You are of course correct about Poland! Poland is the most Roman Catholic place I have ever been. Its nearly as palpably Roman as Greece is Orthodox. I love the place, the people and the food. Some day I'll tell you about my excellent adventure out there which started with flying into a defunct Warsaw Pact MIG base miles outside Krakow, but that's another story entirely! :)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.