Yes, yes......ohhhhh absolutely!!! We shouldn't confuse "social" and "religious" issues, right?
So if the government decrees that all first born males under the age of two should be put to death, that would be a social issue and thus none of the Church's business.
On the other hand, if the government decrees that a picture of the Dalai Lama be placed in all classrooms, that would be a religious issue and very much the Church's business.
How'm I doin'? Am I starting to "get" the Orthodox mindset yet? Is that how the Orthodox ended up running errands for the KGB because communism was a "social" issue and nothing to do with the Church? Is that how you separate "religious" and "social" in your minds?
Here's a clue, Pontius.
Whenever government policy directly undermines the Church's ministry or teaching, whether it be to do with life issues (abortion) or religious freedom (crucifixes) it absolutely is the Church's business.
Unfortunately, they are correct, marshmallow. Using the Bible to swear an oath of office in a secular nation is hypocritical. If Italy declares itself a religious nation, then it may follow the precepts of that religion. It was formerly understood to be Catholic (although not formerly), although the percentage, like the numbers across Europe, are falling. To restore the crucifixes to all classrooms is relatively simple. Declare Italy a Catholic nation and all state institutions to be Catholic; they could model it on certain Oriental or Muslim state constitutions. Now that could be Catholic or Latin Catholic or Roman Catholic. The principles would be the same.
I say simple, and it would be simple. Easy, on the other hand...
According to +Paul (Rom 13:1-2), that would be correct; the government is an instrument of God. The concern of the Church should only be with the health of the souls; to make sure the little ones are all baptized.
On the other hand, if the government decrees that a picture of the Dalai Lama be placed in all classrooms, that would be a religious issue and very much the Church's business
Depends on why his picture was placed in the classroom.
How'm I doin'? Am I starting to "get" the Orthodox mindset yet?
You have to evolve first.
Is that how the Orthodox ended up running errands for the KGB because communism was a "social" issue and nothing to do with the Church?
I don't know. But I do know that about 100,000 Orthodox clergy and nuns, and about 98% of all Orthodox churches in Russia were destroyed. I guess they didn't want to run the KGB errands. Maybe what remained did. Do you have any proof other than a single Lithuanian forgery?
On the other hand, Croatian Catholic clergy, with Cardinal Stepinac's knowledge, managed to even run Ustasha's concentration camps for the fascist government there, let alone some errands.
No one persecuted the Catholic Church in the West, not even the Nazis. The Church got along with everyone...with notable exceptions of course. But the Church did little to save those, so as not to incur the wrath of Germany and suffer the same fate as the Orthodox Churches met by refusing to submit to Islam or Communism. So much for the suffering servant.
Instead, the Vatican chose to have friendly diplomatic relations even with the most abominable and pagan regimes, such as Nazi Germany or such "cathoic" regimes as Franciso Franco's and Benitto Mussolini's.
Here's a clue, Pontius.
Yes, Caiapahas.
Whenever government policy directly undermines the Church's ministry or teaching, whether it be to do with life issues (abortion) or religious freedom (crucifixes) it absolutely is the Church's business
Hmm, and where did you read that? I am sure it wasn't Romans 13 or anywhere else in the Bible.
That's correct,dear friend,and separation of church and state is against Catholic teaching
The syllabus of errors covers much of this and condemned the following as grave error against God ...
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm
A few excerpts....
55. The Church ought to be separated from the .State, and the State from the Church. — Allocution “Acerbissimum,” Sept. 27, 1852.
44. The civil authority may interfere in matters relating to religion, morality and spiritual government: hence, it can pass judgment on the instructions issued for the guidance of consciences, conformably with their mission, by the pastors of the Church. Further, it has the right to make enactments regarding the administration of the divine sacraments, and the dispositions necessary for receiving them. — Allocutions “In consistoriali,” Nov. 1, 1850, and “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862.
47. The best theory of civil society requires that popular schools open to children of every class of the people, and, generally, all public institutes intended for instruction in letters and philosophical sciences and for carrying on the education of youth, should be freed from all ecclesiastical authority, control and interference, and should be fully subjected to the civil and political power at the pleasure of the rulers, and according to the standard of the prevalent opinions of the age. — Epistle to the Archbishop of Freiburg, “Cum non sine,” July 14, 1864.
48. Catholics may approve of the system of educating youth unconnected with Catholic faith and the power of the Church, and which regards the knowledge of merely natural things, and only, or at least primarily, the ends of earthly social life.
ERRORS CONCERNING NATURAL AND CHRISTIAN ETHICS
56. Moral laws do not stand in need of the divine sanction, and it is not at all necessary that human laws should be made conformable to the laws of nature and receive their power of binding from God. — Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862.
57. The science of philosophical things and morals and also civil laws may and ought to keep aloof from divine and ecclesiastical authority. — Ibid.
58. No other forces are to be recognized except those which reside in matter, and all the rectitude and excellence of morality ought to be placed in the accumulation and increase of riches by every possible means, and the gratification of pleasure. — Ibid.; Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863.
59. Right consists in the material fact. All human duties are an empty word, and all human facts have the force of right. — Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862.
64. The violation of any solemn oath, as well as any wicked and flagitious action repugnant to the eternal law, is not only not blamable but is altogether lawful and worthy of the highest praise when done through love of country. — Allocution “Quibus quantisque,” April 20, 1849.
The following is from Pope Leo XII encyclical Libertas....
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_20061888_libertas_en.html
“There are others, somewhat more moderate though not more consistent, who affirm that the morality of individuals is to be guided by the divine law, but not the morality of the State, for that in public affairs the commands of God may be passed over, and may be entirely disregarded in the framing of laws. Hence follows the fatal theory of the need of separation between Church and State. But the absurdity of such a position is manifest. Nature herself proclaims the necessity of the State providing means and opportunities whereby the community may be enabled to live properly, that is to say, according to the laws of God. For, since God is the source of all goodness and justice, it is absolutely ridiculous that the State should pay no attention to these laws or render them abortive by contrary enact menu.”[58]
INSCRUTABILI DEI
ON THE EVILS OF SOCIETY
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13evl.htm
And if any one of sound mind compare the age in which We live, so hostile to religion and to the Church of Christ, with those happy times when the Church was revered as a mother by the nations, beyond all question he will see that our epoch is rushing wildly along the straight road to destruction; while in those times which most abounded in excellent institutions, peaceful life, wealth, and prosperity the people showed themselves most obedient to the Church’s rule and laws. Therefore, if the many blessings We have mentioned, due to the agency and saving help of the Church, are the true and worthy outcome of civilization, the Church of Christ, far from being alien to or neglectful of progress, has a just claim to all men’s praise as its nurse, its mistress, and its mother.
6. Furthermore, that kind of civilization which conflicts with the doctrines and laws of holy Church is nothing but a worthless imitation and meaningless name. Of this those peoples on whom the Gospel light has never shown afford ample proof, since in their mode of life a shadowy semblance only of civilization is discoverable, while its true and solid blessings have never been possessed. Undoubtedly, that cannot by any means be accounted the perfection of civilized life which sets all legitimate authority boldly at defiance; nor can that be regarded as liberty which, shamefully and by the vilest means, spreading false principles, and freely indulging the sensual gratification of lustful desires, claims impunity for all crime and misdemeanor, and thwarts the goodly influence of the worthiest citizens of whatsoever class. Delusive, perverse, and misleading as are these principles, they cannot possibly have any inherent power to perfect the human race and fill it with blessing, for “sin maketh nations miserable.”[3] Such principles, as a matter of course, must hurry nations, corrupted in mind and heart, into every kind of infamy, weaken all right order, and thus, sooner or later, bring the standing and peace of the State to the very brink of ruin.
MATER ET MAGISTRA
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE JOHN XXIII
ON CHRISTIANITY AND SOCIAL PROGRESS
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_xxiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_j-xxiii_enc_15051961_mater_en.html
Venerable Brethren and Dearest Sons, Health and Apostolic Benediction.
Mother and Teacher of all nations—such is the Catholic Church in the mind of her Founder, Jesus Christ; to hold the world in an embrace of love, that men, in every age, should find in her their own completeness in a higher order of living, and their ultimate salvation. She is “the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1) To her was entrusted by her holy Founder the twofold task of giving life to her children and of teaching them and guiding them—both as individuals and as nations—with maternal care. Great is their dignity, a dignity which she has always guarded most zealously and held in the highest esteem.
No Solution Apart from Religion and Church
16. In this Leo XIII showed his complete mastery of the situation. There were those who presumed to accuse the Church of taking no interest in social matters other than to preach resignation to the poor and generosity to the rich, but Leo XIII had no hesitation in proclaiming and defending the legitimate rights of the workers. As he said at the beginning of his exposition of the principles and precepts of the Church in social matters: “We approach the subject with confidence, and in the exercise of the rights which manifestly appertain to Vs, for no practical solution of this question will be found apart from the counsel of religion and of the Church.” (6)
17. You know well enough, Venerable Brethren, the basic economic and social principles for the reconstruction of human society enunciated so clearly and authoritatively by this great Pope.
The State's Role
20. As for the State, its whole raison d’etre is the realization of the common good in the temporal order. It cannot, therefore, hold aloof from economic matters. On the contrary, it must do all in its power to promote the production of a sufficient supply of material goods, “the use of which is necessary for the practice of virtue.” (7) It has also the duty to protect the rights of all its people, and particularly of its weaker members, the workers, women and children. It can never be right for the State to shirk its obligation of working actively for the betterment of the condition of the workingman.
21. It is furthermore the duty of the State to ensure that terms of employment are regulated in accordance with justice and equity, and to safeguard the human dignity of workers by making sure that they are not required to work in an environment which may prove harmful to their material and spiritual interests. It was for this reason that the Leonine encyclical enunciated those general principles of rightness and equity which have been assimilated into the social legislation of many a modern State, and which, as Pope Pius XI declared in the encyclical Quadragesimo Anno, (8) have made no small contribution to the rise and development of that new branch of jurisprudence called labor law.
The Remedy
37. Pius XI saw the re-establishment of the economic world within the framework of the moral order and the subordination of individual and group interests to the interest of the common good as the principal remedies for these evils. This, he taught, necessitated an orderly reconstruction of society, with the establishment of economic and vocational bodies which would be autonomous and independent of the State. Public authority should resume its duty of promoting the common good of all. Finally, there should be co-operation on a world scale for the economic welfare of all nations.
38. Thus Pius XI’s teaching in this encyclical can be summed up under two heads. First he taught what the supreme criterion in economic matters ought not to be. It must not be the special interests of individuals or groups, nor unregulated competition, economic despotism, national prestige or imperialism, nor any other aim of this sort.
39. On the contrary, all forms of economic enterprise must be governed by the principles of social justice and charity.
40. The second point which We consider basic in the encyclical is his teaching that man's aim must be to achieve in social justice a national and international juridical order, with its network of public and private institutions, in which all economic activity can be conducted not merely for private gain but also in the interests of the common good.