Posted on 09/13/2009 11:48:38 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
(This is an update of a study I first posted in Nov. 2003)
Those who labor to understand the nuances of the battle described in Ezekiel 38-39 quickly identify two major puzzles. One is the timing of the battle and the other is the identity of Gog, from Magog. Suffice it to say here that almost no scholar, certainly none I’m aware of, believes the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 has already taken place. Some believe it will occur just before the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week, while others believe Ezekiel is actually describing the Battle of Armageddon, which would put it at the end of the Great Tribulation. But all place it sometime in our future.
In my opinion, there are several reasons why Ezekiel 38 can’t be part of the Armageddon scenario. First, only some nations are involved in Ezekiel 38. For example, Saudi Arabia and Western Europe are said to be on the sidelines observing and others you would expect to see, like Egypt and Jordan, are not mentioned at all, although both appear later on. But Zechariah 12:3 says that in preparation for the Battle of Armageddon all the nations of the Earth will come against Jerusalem.
Second, how is Israel going to burn the left over weapons for 7 years as Ezekiel 39:9 indicates unless there are 7 years left in which to burn them? Rev. 21:24. says the nations will walk by the light of the New Jerusalem in the Millennium, so they won’t need fuel for energy then. And then you have Ezekiel 38:11 telling us that Israel will be a peaceful and unsuspecting people when the Moslem coalition strikes. Could that be possible near the end of the Great Tribulation when all the nations are gathering to attack? I don’t think so.
But most importantly, Daniel’s 70th week can’t start until Israel is back in covenant with God and the battle of Ezekiel 38 is what causes the covenant to be re-instated. (Ezek. 39:22) Armageddon comes at the end of Daniel’s 70th week, not the beginning.
As for Gog and Magog, the first thing to note is that while Magog is listed in Genesis 10, Gog is not. The list of 70 names in Genesis 10 is often called the Table of Nations because each of the men named there was the original ancestor of an ethnic group that grew to become a nation of people. For instance, Magog was the 2nd son of Japeth, one of Noah’s three sons, and bore the children who in time became known to the ancient world as the Scythians. They lived in central Asia and are believed to be the forefathers of today’s Russians. Many historical references support this view. For example, Josephus Flavius wrote “Magog founded the Magogians, thus named after him, but who were by the Greeks called Scythians.” And in some ancient Arabic documents, the Great Wall of China is called the Ramparts of Gog and Magog. It was built to keep the Scythians out of China.
So while the Russian people of today are likely descended from Magog, there is no such biological connection for Gog to either Magog or any other ethnic group. There is an unrelated mention of a man named Gog, a grandson of Reuben, in 1 Chronicles 5:4 but there doesn’t seem to be any connection between him and the land of Magog either. Clearly, while Magog refers to the millions of his descendants in today’s Russia, Gog remains a single individual.
Some say he’s a king or leader, and in a real sense I think that’s true but I don’t believe he’s of the human variety. The time spanned by his three appearances in scripture make that impossible.
The first one is in the first verse of Amos 7, but you have to be reading Amos from the Septuigent translation to see it. There, Gog is identified as a king, but of a swarm of locusts. To further shroud him in mystery Proverbs 30:27 states that locusts have no king, and observers of locust swarms agree that no obvious leader directs them, as a queen would direct a hive of bees for example. The swarm of locusts led by Gog in Amos 7:1-2 was symbolic of a judgment that was to come upon the Northern Kingdom, but the Lord relented because of Amos’ intercession.
(This hint also lends insight to another appearance of locusts, by the way. I’m referring to the one in Revelation 9, where a swarm of locusts comes out of the Abyss to afflict those on Earth who lack the seal of God on their foreheads. These locusts have a king named Abaddon in the Hebrew or Appolyon in the Greek. Here again, the Proverbs passage would indicate that these locusts are of supernatural origin like the ones in Amos 7, not ordinary locusts.)
The next time Gog’s mentioned is in Ezekiel 38:1, where he is called by name as the leader of a coalition of what are now primarily Moslem nations attacking Israel. His final mention comes from the Book of Revelation where he again leads the people from Magog against the Lord’s army at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:8).
Even if you’re among those who place the battle of Ezekiel 38 at the end of the Great Tribulation, the span of time between Gog’s last two biblical appearances is at least 1000 years, and while I believe that some born in that era will have long life spans, there isn’t any indication that natural humans born before the Millennium begins will live to see its end. This is especially true of God’s enemies, since all surviving unbelievers are removed from Earth at the beginning of our Lord’s reign.
So I’ve come to the conclusion that Gog is a supernatural figure. The Bible clearly states that behind the human seats of government stand supernatural figures manipulating the thoughts and actions of the world’s leaders. These figures are in Satan’s employ, helping in his effort to wrest ownership of Planet Earth from its Creator. Gog is at least the supernatural figure behind the throne of Russia, and perhaps is even Satan’s counterpart to the Archangel Michael, who commands the Lord’s armies.
In Daniel 10:13 Michael is identified as one of the Lord’s chief princes who in 536 BC came to Daniel’s aid in a supernatural struggle with the Prince of Persia, a nation barely emerging on the world scene having conquered Babylon just three years earlier. At its conclusion Michael told Daniel that he’d soon be battling the Prince of Greece, a nation that didn’t even exist at the time. In Daniel 12:1 we’re told he’ll protect Israel at the end of the age. And in Rev 12:7 he’s seen leading the angelic host in a great battle in heaven when Satan is defeated there and cast down to Earth at the outset of the Great Tribulation. Michael is clearly a supernatural warrior leaping across the pages of history in defense of the Lord’s interests. It makes sense that Satan would have a military commander leading his forces as well, since everything he does seems to mirror the actions of his Creator. With his multiple mentions in Scripture and the long span of time between appearances, Gog could easily be this commander.
Only time will tell if this view is correct. But one of the great advantages of living in our day is that we won’t have long to wait till we find out. You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 09-12-09
That is found most prominently in Ez 38.
Oops... shoulda known you’d find it yourself... :D
Thanks for your kind comment.
Have a blessed Monday.
Is this where cartoons meet Bible prophecy?
Notice who ultimately is in charge of 'Gog'. Reminds me of Gideon Judges 7, where Gideon's army is culled down to 300 so the people would know who saved them.
It was a light-hearted “yowzers.”
I understand, and your read on my general opposition to your position on such topics is correct.
I generally agree with this topic, and with the idea that Gog is an Arch-Demon, similar in rank (but in opposition) to Archangels.
I also agree with the proposal that the War of Magog is a different subject than the War of Armageddon. One of the main indicators, one that isn’t mentioned in the OP, is the geographical difference in where the battles are to take place.
The final battle of Armageddon famously takes place upon the plain of Megiddo, down the Jezreel Valley, toward Jerusalem. These landmarks are north and west of Jerusalem.
The final battle of Magog happens in the Valley of Jehosaphat, which is basically the Jordan river flood plain south of Jerusalem toward the Dead Sea. The “Valley of the Travelers”, where the dead will be buried until the valley is made level ground, can be found there, in the ancient land of Moab.
What I wonder about is whether the War against Edom is comparable to the war of Magog. Many of the Old Prophets describe this war in apocalyptic language, and many of the prophecies within have not happened. It seems to happen in the same environs as the War of Magog.
If they are the same, it greatly increases our knowledge of the time to come.
You too, FRiend. Ping to #48
Uh.........OK, Jack.
Keep on bloggin'.
Why in the world would anyone in their right mind care what "Jack Kelley" (who?) or Tim LaHaye think about anything??
They are riding horses (v. Eze. 38:4,15).
They are wearing armor and swords (v. Eze. 38:4).
They are armed with bows and arrows (v. Eze. 39:3)
All the nations listed are located in very close proximity to Israel (v. Eze. 38:4), i.e., they are readily accessible by armies mounted on horseback.
Now, a good Bible interpreter, rather than relying on their own faulty presuppositions, or rather than taking the untested interpretation of others, would actually turn to the Bible and see how a word or phrase is to be interpreted so as to have meaning within the entire
E.g., they would read passages such as:
41 " Behold, a people is coming from the north, And a great nation and many kings Will be aroused from the remote parts of the earth. 42 "They seize {their} bow and javelin; They are cruel and have no mercy. Their voice roars like the sea; And they ride on horses, Marshalled like a man for the battle Against you, O daughter of Babylon. 43 "The king of Babylon has heard the report about them, And his hands hang limp; Distress has gripped him, Agony like a woman in childbirth. (Jer. 50)And see how this phrase is used wrt a prophecy against ancient Babylon which was fulfilled when it was overrun by the armies of the Medo-Persians. The Medo-Persians were not that far from Babylon (in modern geographic terms), but the biblical phrase is not necessarily speaking in pure geographical terms.
It’s obvious, when you read and understand the Bible, that phrases like “from the north … remote parts of the earth” are not meant to be interpreted using a modern geography book, but in accordance with the words of Scripture. Otherwise you end up with nonsense, which is what the futurists who speak of Moscow and Russia wrt Gog and Magog are doing.
In the fantasy world of modern futurists, you have a curious development. While these folk claim to be “literal” interpreters of the Bible, they can run from any sensible literal interpretation as fast as a fox from a hound. The text of Ezekiel 37-38 clearly is speaking of ancient armies using ancient tools of war, but the futurist, in order to satisfy their faulty presuppositions, ignores the text and create a vision of modern armies using modern war-fighting techniques.
Or, more embarrassingly, they clothe these modern armies with ancient implements. So we have the Russian armies marching from Moscow to the border of Jerusalem on horseback, a trip of some 1700 miles as the crow flies. Much further on horseback. So here we are led to believe that the modern Israeli military and intelligence community is going to let the Russian army on horseback just waltz in the Middle East unchallenged. And then this Russian army on horseback is going to devastate the land. One would think that rational folks would be embarrassed to be associated with such a fantastic scenario of future events.
One more point, futurists make much of the book of Revelation wrt this future battle of Gog and Magog vs. Israel. But, we should note that the only place that “Gog and Magog” appears in the book is in chapter 20, at the very end of the “1000 years”. It’s indeed odd that the vision of Revelation could not make a direct connection between the futurist God and Magog ala their future “great tribulation” and the chapters of Revelation they claim speak of this same event.
I’ll punt it back to you for what will no doubt be a challenging and engrossing, solidly biblical interpretation without any hint of your usual incoherent repartee.
Seems like a reasonable approach, but it denies how imagery is used throughout Scripture. Read Ephesians 6 especially 10-17.
I don't believe you would say that the Armor of God are actual physical things.
I personally can't believe that for all these years of reading and being familiar with Ezekiel 38 and 39, I never caught the fact that the "chief prince" title that God gives to Gog is proof positive that Gog is a fallen angel, a demon.
Let me see if I understand what you are suggesting, some fallen angel is going to marshal an army of Russians on horseback with swords to go up against the modern Israeli army?
At the end of the “1000 years”, “Gog and Magog” in Rev. 20 are identified as nations, not individuals. They are the ones again being deceived by Satan.
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
The first one is in the first verse of Amos 7, but you have to be reading Amos from the Septuigent translation to see it.
Two things here; 1) the Septuagint is not inspired so you cannot make any doctrinal claims from it, and 2) contrary to your suggestion, the Gog in the Septuagint version is identified as one of the locusts, a larve, not as some other type of creature.
I don't believe you would say that the Armor of God are actual physical things.
No, I wouldn’t. But Ephesians 6 explicitly tells us what the armor of God represents. It could not be clearer. It tells you; “this means that”.
In the case of the faulty futurist interpretation of Ezekiel 37-39, they need to avoid the apparent historical content, and reinterpret all the words to suit their preconceptions about what the verses are teaching. Further they avoid using the Bible as its own commentary to help them understand the words, as I have demonstrated.
The “this mean that” is only in their minds. It is not in the text.
They are fixated on a fantasy scenario, and they cannot help but abuse the text to their own ends.
Good points.
Cartoonish prophecy?
No. That would be the case with the
preterist, a-mil, post-mil, run-of-the-mil, REPLACEMENTARIANs’ et al’s posts.
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