Finding Gog

Rapturealert.com ^ | 09-12-09 | Jack Kelley

[GiovannaNicoletta]

(This is an update of a study I first posted in Nov. 2003)

Those who labor to understand the nuances of the battle described in Ezekiel 38-39 quickly identify two major puzzles. One is the timing of the battle and the other is the identity of Gog, from Magog. Suffice it to say here that almost no scholar, certainly none I’m aware of, believes the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 has already taken place. Some believe it will occur just before the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week, while others believe Ezekiel is actually describing the Battle of Armageddon, which would put it at the end of the Great Tribulation. But all place it sometime in our future.

In my opinion, there are several reasons why Ezekiel 38 can’t be part of the Armageddon scenario. First, only some nations are involved in Ezekiel 38. For example, Saudi Arabia and Western Europe are said to be on the sidelines observing and others you would expect to see, like Egypt and Jordan, are not mentioned at all, although both appear later on. But Zechariah 12:3 says that in preparation for the Battle of Armageddon all the nations of the Earth will come against Jerusalem.

Second, how is Israel going to burn the left over weapons for 7 years as Ezekiel 39:9 indicates unless there are 7 years left in which to burn them? Rev. 21:24. says the nations will walk by the light of the New Jerusalem in the Millennium, so they won’t need fuel for energy then. And then you have Ezekiel 38:11 telling us that Israel will be a peaceful and unsuspecting people when the Moslem coalition strikes. Could that be possible near the end of the Great Tribulation when all the nations are gathering to attack? I don’t think so.

But most importantly, Daniel’s 70th week can’t start until Israel is back in covenant with God and the battle of Ezekiel 38 is what causes the covenant to be re-instated. (Ezek. 39:22) Armageddon comes at the end of Daniel’s 70th week, not the beginning.

As for Gog and Magog, the first thing to note is that while Magog is listed in Genesis 10, Gog is not. The list of 70 names in Genesis 10 is often called the Table of Nations because each of the men named there was the original ancestor of an ethnic group that grew to become a nation of people. For instance, Magog was the 2nd son of Japeth, one of Noah’s three sons, and bore the children who in time became known to the ancient world as the Scythians. They lived in central Asia and are believed to be the forefathers of today’s Russians. Many historical references support this view. For example, Josephus Flavius wrote “Magog founded the Magogians, thus named after him, but who were by the Greeks called Scythians.” And in some ancient Arabic documents, the Great Wall of China is called the Ramparts of Gog and Magog. It was built to keep the Scythians out of China.

So while the Russian people of today are likely descended from Magog, there is no such biological connection for Gog to either Magog or any other ethnic group. There is an unrelated mention of a man named Gog, a grandson of Reuben, in 1 Chronicles 5:4 but there doesn’t seem to be any connection between him and the land of Magog either. Clearly, while Magog refers to the millions of his descendants in today’s Russia, Gog remains a single individual.

Some say he’s a king or leader, and in a real sense I think that’s true but I don’t believe he’s of the human variety. The time spanned by his three appearances in scripture make that impossible.

The first one is in the first verse of Amos 7, but you have to be reading Amos from the Septuigent translation to see it. There, Gog is identified as a king, but of a swarm of locusts. To further shroud him in mystery Proverbs 30:27 states that locusts have no king, and observers of locust swarms agree that no obvious leader directs them, as a queen would direct a hive of bees for example. The swarm of locusts led by Gog in Amos 7:1-2 was symbolic of a judgment that was to come upon the Northern Kingdom, but the Lord relented because of Amos’ intercession.

(This hint also lends insight to another appearance of locusts, by the way. I’m referring to the one in Revelation 9, where a swarm of locusts comes out of the Abyss to afflict those on Earth who lack the seal of God on their foreheads. These locusts have a king named Abaddon in the Hebrew or Appolyon in the Greek. Here again, the Proverbs passage would indicate that these locusts are of supernatural origin like the ones in Amos 7, not ordinary locusts.)

The next time Gog’s mentioned is in Ezekiel 38:1, where he is called by name as the leader of a coalition of what are now primarily Moslem nations attacking Israel. His final mention comes from the Book of Revelation where he again leads the people from Magog against the Lord’s army at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:8).

Even if you’re among those who place the battle of Ezekiel 38 at the end of the Great Tribulation, the span of time between Gog’s last two biblical appearances is at least 1000 years, and while I believe that some born in that era will have long life spans, there isn’t any indication that natural humans born before the Millennium begins will live to see its end. This is especially true of God’s enemies, since all surviving unbelievers are removed from Earth at the beginning of our Lord’s reign.

So I’ve come to the conclusion that Gog is a supernatural figure. The Bible clearly states that behind the human seats of government stand supernatural figures manipulating the thoughts and actions of the world’s leaders. These figures are in Satan’s employ, helping in his effort to wrest ownership of Planet Earth from its Creator. Gog is at least the supernatural figure behind the throne of Russia, and perhaps is even Satan’s counterpart to the Archangel Michael, who commands the Lord’s armies.

In Daniel 10:13 Michael is identified as one of the Lord’s chief princes who in 536 BC came to Daniel’s aid in a supernatural struggle with the Prince of Persia, a nation barely emerging on the world scene having conquered Babylon just three years earlier. At its conclusion Michael told Daniel that he’d soon be battling the Prince of Greece, a nation that didn’t even exist at the time. In Daniel 12:1 we’re told he’ll protect Israel at the end of the age. And in Rev 12:7 he’s seen leading the angelic host in a great battle in heaven when Satan is defeated there and cast down to Earth at the outset of the Great Tribulation. Michael is clearly a supernatural warrior leaping across the pages of history in defense of the Lord’s interests. It makes sense that Satan would have a military commander leading his forces as well, since everything he does seems to mirror the actions of his Creator. With his multiple mentions in Scripture and the long span of time between appearances, Gog could easily be this commander.

Only time will tell if this view is correct. But one of the great advantages of living in our day is that we won’t have long to wait till we find out. You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 09-12-09

[DaveMSmith]

In my life, internal worship starts with quiet contemplative prayer with the intention of seeking the Lord. The Catholic faith has a long tradition of this and there are many excellent books out there -- my favorite is Open Mind, Open Heart by Thomas Keating. It starts with setting aside time each day and keeping it up as a habit to clear thoughts.

From there I found I began to know the Lord, not just know about Him. Internal worship comes from following His commandments and taking the time to listen for the wisdom that is all around us. God is everywhere. With a positive attitude and letting go of the 'ego', He can be seen.

When our will is aligned and attuned to Gods, we are worshipping internally.

[topcat54]

The Battle of Gog and Magog

[topcat54]

One of the Scriptures related to such . . . identifies Gog or Magog as being of the country NORTHERNMOST FROM Jerusalem.

There is no such verse.

[Quix]

It’s conceivable that my precision is slightly off.

There IS such a verse.

Though perhaps not in the Preterist, A-mil, post-mil, REPLACEMENTARIANS et al’s RUBBER BIBLES.

I’ll check on it when I have more time.

[boatbums]

Daniel 11:5-20 (New King James Version)

Warring Kings of North and South

5 “Also the king of the South shall become strong, as well as one of his princes; and he shall gain power over him and have dominion. His dominion shall be a great dominion. 6 And at the end of some years they shall join forces, for the daughter of the king of the South shall go to the king of the North to make an agreement; but she shall not retain the power of her authority,[a] and neither he nor his authority[b] shall stand; but she shall be given up, with those who brought her, and with him who begot her, and with him who strengthened her in those times. 7 But from a branch of her roots one shall arise in his place, who shall come with an army, enter the fortress of the king of the North, and deal with them and prevail. 8 And he shall also carry their gods captive to Egypt, with their princes[c]and their precious articles of silver and gold; and he shall continue more years than the king of the North.
9 “Also the king of the North shall come to the kingdom of the king of the South, but shall return to his own land. 10 However his sons shall stir up strife, and assemble a multitude of great forces; and one shall certainly come and overwhelm and pass through; then he shall return to his fortress and stir up strife.
11 “And the king of the South shall be moved with rage, and go out and fight with him, with the king of the North, who shall muster a great multitude; but the multitude shall be given into the hand of his enemy. 12 When he has taken away the multitude, his heart will be lifted up; and he will cast down tens of thousands, but he will not prevail. 13 For the king of the North will return and muster a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come at the end of some years with a great army and much equipment.
14 “Now in those times many shall rise up against the king of the South. Also, violent men[d] of your people shall exalt themselves in fulfillment of the vision, but they shall fall. 15 So the king of the North shall come and build a siege mound, and take a fortified city; and the forces[e] of the South shall not withstand him. Even his choice troops shall have no strength to resist. 16 But he who comes against him shall do according to his own will, and no one shall stand against him. He shall stand in the Glorious Land with destruction in his power.[f]
17 “He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones[g] with him; thus shall he do. And he shall give him the daughter of women to destroy it; but she shall not stand with him, or be for him. 18 After this he shall turn his face to the coastlands, and shall take many. But a ruler shall bring the reproach against them to an end; and with the reproach removed, he shall turn back on him. 19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fortress of his own land; but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.
20 “There shall arise in his place one who imposes taxes on the glorious kingdom; but within a few days he shall be destroyed, but not in anger or in battle.

[boatbums]

thanks for the post. I awake every day hoping “today, may be the day!”

[boatbums]

Daniel 11:21-45(New King James Version)

21 And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue. 22 With the force[h] of a flood they shall be swept away from before him and be broken, and also the prince of the covenant. 23 And after the league is made with him he shall act deceitfully, for he shall come up and become strong with a small number of people. 24 He shall enter peaceably, even into the richest places of the province; and he shall do what his fathers have not done, nor his forefathers: he shall disperse among them the plunder, spoil, and riches; and he shall devise his plans against the strongholds, but only for a time.
25 “He shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the South with a great army. And the king of the South shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand, for they shall devise plans against him. 26 Yes, those who eat of the portion of his delicacies shall destroy him; his army shall be swept away, and many shall fall down slain. 27 Both these kings’ hearts shall be bent on evil, and they shall speak lies at the same table; but it shall not prosper, for the end will still be at the appointed time. 28 While returning to his land with great riches, his heart shall be moved against the holy covenant; so he shall do damage and return to his own land.
The Northern King’s Blasphemies

29 “At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former or the latter. 30 For ships from Cyprus[i] shall come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and return in rage against the holy covenant, and do damage.
“So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 And forces[j] shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. 32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33 And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. 34 Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue. 35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.
36 “Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. 37 He shall regard neither the God[k] of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. 38 But in their place he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things. 39 Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain.
The Northern King’s Conquests

40 “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. 41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Ethiopians shall follow at his heels. 44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many. 45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.

[Quix]

Still doing administrivia for my class tomorrow.

So I didn’t read every phrase.

I didn’t, however, notice any phrase about UTTERMOST NORTH OR NORTHERN MOST country.

Was such in there?

Thanks.

[boatbums]

I am quoting these scripure passages that refer to “The King of the South” and “The King of the North”. I searched several translations and versions and the ONLY references in the Bible for Kings of the South or North are found in Daniel 11. I can assume that a “King” of a certain area (i.e., North, South, etc.) would imply the entire area. There are scriptural references to The King of the East but no King of the West. Does it specifically say the “furthermost areas of the north”? No, not specifically but why the use of the term “king” if it only means nations to the north of a location?

[Quix]

The verse I’m thinking of

has some wording like:

—northern most
—uttermost north

etc.

Haven’t found it yet, either.

I’m 100% certain it’s in Scripture, however. Have read it many times and noted that folks who would argue against Russia as fitting those prophecies were off the wall clueless because of that verse. No other country possibly fits.

My memory of Scripture is in the KJV, BTW.

[Quix]

I don’t know that the verse I’m recalling has any mention of KING of the North or South in it.

[raynearhood]

most north
northern most
northernmost
furthest north
farthest north
more north
very north
super north
none so north as

But, there is always Jeremiah 6:22 which could be the verse being a) misread, b)misapplied after being misread, and c)having a whole bunch of stuff read into it after being misread.

Thus says the LORD: "Behold, a people is coming from the north country, a great nation is stirring from the farthest parts of the earth."(ESV)

Thus saith Jehovah, Behold, a people cometh from the north country; and a great nation shall be stirred up from the uttermost parts of the earth.(ASV)

Thus saith the LORD, Behold, a people cometh from the north country, and a great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth.(KJV)

[Quix]

THANKS TC, for your persistent affirmation of

UNRUBBERIZED BIBLICAL TRUTH by the

brazenly silly RUBBERIZED pontifications so frequently lobbed so humorously against solid UNRUBBERIZED BIBLICAL TRUTH in such off-the-wall assertions.

In this case . . . note Ezek 38:15:

Ezekiel 38 (Amplified Bible)

Ezekiel 38 1AND THE word of the Lord came to me, saying,
2Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of [a]Magog, the prince of Rosh, of Meshech, and of Tubal, and prophesy against him,

3And say, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, chief prince (ruler) of Rosh, of Meshech, and of Tubal.

4And I will turn you back and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you forth and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed in full armor, a great company with buckler and shield, all of them handling swords--

5Persia, Cush, and Put or Libya with them, all of them with shield and helmet,

6Gomer and all his hordes, the house of Togarmah in the uttermost parts of the north and all his hordes--many people are with you.

7You [Gog] be prepared; yes, prepare yourself, you and all your companies that are assembled about you, and you be a guard and a commander for them.

8After many days you shall be visited and mustered [for service]; in the latter years you shall go against the land that is restored from the ravages of the sword, where people are gathered out of many nations upon the mountains of Israel, which had been a continual waste; but its [people] are brought forth out of the nations and they shall dwell securely, all of them.(A)

9You shall ascend and come like a storm; you shall be like a cloud to cover the land, you and all your hosts and many people with you.

10Thus says the Lord God: At the same time thoughts shall come into your mind, and you will devise an evil plan.

11And you will say, I will go up against an open country [the land of unwalled villages]; I will fall upon those who are at rest, who dwell securely, all of them dwelling without walls and having neither bars nor gates,

12To take spoil and prey, to turn your hand upon the desolate places now inhabited and assail the people gathered out of the nations, who have obtained livestock and goods, who dwell at the center of the earth [Palestine].

13Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish, with all their lionlike cubs [or satellite areas], shall say to you, Have you come to take spoil? Have you gathered your hosts to take the prey? To carry away silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods, to take a great spoil?

14Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog, Thus says the Lord God: In that day when My people Israel dwell securely, will you not know it and be aroused?

15And you will come from your place out of the uttermost parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great host, a mighty army.

AMPLIFIED VERSION.

I realize your Rubberized preterist, a-mil, post-mil, run-of-the-mil REPLACEMENTARIAN Bible doesn't likely have that verse. So you are welcome to read the authentic Bible version here.

[Quix]

WRONG,

as usual.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

Here is the verse from the Ezekiel prophecy which refers the nation(s) from "the far north", which, of course, refers to Russia:

14 "Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? 15 You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you, all of them riding on horses, a great horde, a mighty army. 16 You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. In days to come, O Gog, I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I show myself holy through you before their eyes. (Ezekiel 38:14-16)

[GiovannaNicoletta]

Oops! I posted my reply but I see you already found it!

Have a wonderful Monday, Quix!

[raynearhood]

Yowzers, I was just trying to help.

[Quix]

My apology, then.

Hard for me to tell.

LOL.

[Quix]

You too.

Love the topic.

Hate the idiocies some throw at it.

[Quix]

i ASSUME, that in the context of our relationship vis a vis such topics, you can well understand why I might construe almost anything you said as . . . fiesty opposition.