Posted on 09/13/2009 11:48:38 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
(This is an update of a study I first posted in Nov. 2003)
Those who labor to understand the nuances of the battle described in Ezekiel 38-39 quickly identify two major puzzles. One is the timing of the battle and the other is the identity of Gog, from Magog. Suffice it to say here that almost no scholar, certainly none I’m aware of, believes the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 has already taken place. Some believe it will occur just before the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week, while others believe Ezekiel is actually describing the Battle of Armageddon, which would put it at the end of the Great Tribulation. But all place it sometime in our future.
In my opinion, there are several reasons why Ezekiel 38 can’t be part of the Armageddon scenario. First, only some nations are involved in Ezekiel 38. For example, Saudi Arabia and Western Europe are said to be on the sidelines observing and others you would expect to see, like Egypt and Jordan, are not mentioned at all, although both appear later on. But Zechariah 12:3 says that in preparation for the Battle of Armageddon all the nations of the Earth will come against Jerusalem.
Second, how is Israel going to burn the left over weapons for 7 years as Ezekiel 39:9 indicates unless there are 7 years left in which to burn them? Rev. 21:24. says the nations will walk by the light of the New Jerusalem in the Millennium, so they won’t need fuel for energy then. And then you have Ezekiel 38:11 telling us that Israel will be a peaceful and unsuspecting people when the Moslem coalition strikes. Could that be possible near the end of the Great Tribulation when all the nations are gathering to attack? I don’t think so.
But most importantly, Daniel’s 70th week can’t start until Israel is back in covenant with God and the battle of Ezekiel 38 is what causes the covenant to be re-instated. (Ezek. 39:22) Armageddon comes at the end of Daniel’s 70th week, not the beginning.
As for Gog and Magog, the first thing to note is that while Magog is listed in Genesis 10, Gog is not. The list of 70 names in Genesis 10 is often called the Table of Nations because each of the men named there was the original ancestor of an ethnic group that grew to become a nation of people. For instance, Magog was the 2nd son of Japeth, one of Noah’s three sons, and bore the children who in time became known to the ancient world as the Scythians. They lived in central Asia and are believed to be the forefathers of today’s Russians. Many historical references support this view. For example, Josephus Flavius wrote “Magog founded the Magogians, thus named after him, but who were by the Greeks called Scythians.” And in some ancient Arabic documents, the Great Wall of China is called the Ramparts of Gog and Magog. It was built to keep the Scythians out of China.
So while the Russian people of today are likely descended from Magog, there is no such biological connection for Gog to either Magog or any other ethnic group. There is an unrelated mention of a man named Gog, a grandson of Reuben, in 1 Chronicles 5:4 but there doesn’t seem to be any connection between him and the land of Magog either. Clearly, while Magog refers to the millions of his descendants in today’s Russia, Gog remains a single individual.
Some say he’s a king or leader, and in a real sense I think that’s true but I don’t believe he’s of the human variety. The time spanned by his three appearances in scripture make that impossible.
The first one is in the first verse of Amos 7, but you have to be reading Amos from the Septuigent translation to see it. There, Gog is identified as a king, but of a swarm of locusts. To further shroud him in mystery Proverbs 30:27 states that locusts have no king, and observers of locust swarms agree that no obvious leader directs them, as a queen would direct a hive of bees for example. The swarm of locusts led by Gog in Amos 7:1-2 was symbolic of a judgment that was to come upon the Northern Kingdom, but the Lord relented because of Amos’ intercession.
(This hint also lends insight to another appearance of locusts, by the way. I’m referring to the one in Revelation 9, where a swarm of locusts comes out of the Abyss to afflict those on Earth who lack the seal of God on their foreheads. These locusts have a king named Abaddon in the Hebrew or Appolyon in the Greek. Here again, the Proverbs passage would indicate that these locusts are of supernatural origin like the ones in Amos 7, not ordinary locusts.)
The next time Gog’s mentioned is in Ezekiel 38:1, where he is called by name as the leader of a coalition of what are now primarily Moslem nations attacking Israel. His final mention comes from the Book of Revelation where he again leads the people from Magog against the Lord’s army at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:8).
Even if you’re among those who place the battle of Ezekiel 38 at the end of the Great Tribulation, the span of time between Gog’s last two biblical appearances is at least 1000 years, and while I believe that some born in that era will have long life spans, there isn’t any indication that natural humans born before the Millennium begins will live to see its end. This is especially true of God’s enemies, since all surviving unbelievers are removed from Earth at the beginning of our Lord’s reign.
So I’ve come to the conclusion that Gog is a supernatural figure. The Bible clearly states that behind the human seats of government stand supernatural figures manipulating the thoughts and actions of the world’s leaders. These figures are in Satan’s employ, helping in his effort to wrest ownership of Planet Earth from its Creator. Gog is at least the supernatural figure behind the throne of Russia, and perhaps is even Satan’s counterpart to the Archangel Michael, who commands the Lord’s armies.
In Daniel 10:13 Michael is identified as one of the Lord’s chief princes who in 536 BC came to Daniel’s aid in a supernatural struggle with the Prince of Persia, a nation barely emerging on the world scene having conquered Babylon just three years earlier. At its conclusion Michael told Daniel that he’d soon be battling the Prince of Greece, a nation that didn’t even exist at the time. In Daniel 12:1 we’re told he’ll protect Israel at the end of the age. And in Rev 12:7 he’s seen leading the angelic host in a great battle in heaven when Satan is defeated there and cast down to Earth at the outset of the Great Tribulation. Michael is clearly a supernatural warrior leaping across the pages of history in defense of the Lord’s interests. It makes sense that Satan would have a military commander leading his forces as well, since everything he does seems to mirror the actions of his Creator. With his multiple mentions in Scripture and the long span of time between appearances, Gog could easily be this commander.
Only time will tell if this view is correct. But one of the great advantages of living in our day is that we won’t have long to wait till we find out. You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 09-12-09
Woohoo!! Thanks Quix, for your boldness!! Love your posts and heartily agree. I think it is such a shame how people consider God on such human levels.
God is HOLINESS!!!
His plan is on His terms rather than ours, and it’s for the sake of His glory rather than our desires.
Then I found this site.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
THANKS.
Those are interesting issues to prayerfully ponder.
1. Certainly GOD DOES MANY THINGS . . . MOST? . . . FOR HIS GLORY.
2. Yet, certainly He loves Abraham as HIS BUDDY, FRIEND. And has promised to treat Abraham and Jacob’s kids accordingly. ‘Grandpaw God’ has a rather awesome ring to it. And all the Biblical and other evidence is that God delights in treating Abraham and Jacob and their kids accordingly.
3. Jacob’s kids, Israel . . . whether reprobate, apostate, even rebellious . . . CANNOT escape out from under the covenant—if needs be, God could wipe them all out and resurrect them from rocks as Scripture indicates.
4. What is all this emphasis on HIS GLORY. Does Almighty God NEED a throne-room of mirrors to confirm and feel good about Himself? HARDLY! NO WAY! He is . . . wise enough . . . being God and all . . . to know that finite creatures MUST HAVE AN INFINITE APPRECIATION FOR ALMIGHTY GOD’S POSITION, POWER, AUTHORITY else the whole show is at risk.
5. IN A SENSE, even when He does things FOR HIS GLORY—they are also for us—OBJECT LESSONS TO INSURE THAT WE KEEP OUR POSITIONS and don’t foolishly conive and jocky for His. No more best buddies rebelling like satan.
6. HIS GLORY events are GRAND DEMONSTRATIONS, OBJECT LESSONS for our pleasure; His pleasure at us enjoying Him; our pleasure basking in His Greatness and Great Love; His pleasure in insuring that we keep the perspectives right.
7. BLESSED BE THE NAME AND GLORY OF THE LORD.
Yes, yes, absolutely. His glory is all about His position power and authority...and yes it includes us, is for us.
I simply cannot wait!!!
PRAISE HIM!!!!
Will check out the link.
I don’t believe such objects would fit the prophecy.
I believe God described the images of the horses and riders in such detail for a reason.
I believe that a bystander at the time will SEE visually with normal eyes more or less [and more “more” than “less”] exactly what was described in the prophecy. That the eventual reality may not precisely fit every individual’s preconceived notions of what the horses and riders will be—YET THE REALITY THEN WILL WELL FIT THE DESCRIPTION IN SCRIPTURE. I have 0.0000% doubt of that.
Otherwise, I do not believe God would have gone into such details about the appearance of the “horses.”
I can buy symbolic . . . when Scripture notes that it’s symbolic . . . such as the lampstands etc. Yet, most of the time, I think even the symbolic will turn out to have been BOTH LITERAL AND SYMBOLIC.
my 2 cents.
INDEED, INDEED, INDEED!
I’m getting more homesick by the day.
So you are saying that when the bible speaks of a great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, that it is not actually symbolic of something else? That a real dragon will stand before a real woman and eat up her real child as it is born?
You're saying that speculation about what it actually symbolizes is nonsense? That the description given in the bible of an army on horseback is a literal description?
The breast plates of iron and the many bright colors got me to thinking of celestial objects for some reason.
“5. Can fireballs appear in different colors?
Vivid colors are more often reported by fireball observers because the brightness is great enough to fall well within the range of human color vision. These must be treated with some caution, however, because of well-known effects associated with the persistence of vision. Reported colors range across the spectrum, from red to bright blue, and (rarely) violet. The dominant composition of a meteoroid can play an important part in the observed colors of a fireball, with certain elements displaying signature colors when vaporized. For example, sodium produces a bright yellow color, nickel shows as green, and magnesium as blue-white. The velocity of the meteor also plays an important role, since a higher level of kinetic energy will intensify certain colors compared to others. Among fainter objects, it seems to be reported that slow meteors are red or orange, while fast meteors frequently have a blue color, but for fireballs the situation seems more complex than that, but perhaps only because of the curiosities of color vision as mentioned above.
The difficulties of specifying meteor color arise because meteor light is dominated by an emission, rather than a continuous, spectrum. The majority of light from a fireball radiates from a compact cloud of material immediately surrounding the meteoroid or closely trailing it. 95% of this cloud consists of atoms from the surrounding atmosphere; the balance consists of atoms of vaporized elements from the meteoroid itself. These excited particles will emit light at wavelengths characteristic for each element. The most common emission lines observed in the visual portion of the spectrum from ablated material in the fireball head originate from iron (Fe), magnesium (Mg), and sodium (Na). Silicon (Si) may be under-represented due to incomplete dissociation of SiO2 molecules. Manganese (Mn), Chromium (Cr), Copper (Cu) have been observed in fireball spectra, along with rarer elements. The refractory elements Aluminum (Al), Calcium (Ca), and Titanium (Ti) tend to be incompletely vaporized and thus also under-represented in fireball spectra.”
Interesting.
Thanks thanks.
Actually,
TC tends to assert the opposite.
OK. I think (on this point) that I’ll have to agree. I don’t think the 200 million are actual horsemen. Not sure what they are yet, but my thinking is that the term “200 million horsemen” is merely “one really huge army” that would normally be unbeatable.
I am jealous. If I could, I would spend my life digging up the past, and visiting places such as this.
I believe that the first Gog/Magog war will be before Armageddon.
I do too. But I further believe it to be the catalyst which will turn all of the secular state of Israel back to Jehovah... The 7 years of "cleansing the land"... and possibly the catalyst for the capturing, finally, of the Temple Mount, and the construction of Ezekiel's Temple.
Note that I do not expect Israel (the state) to see their Messiah at this time - God's two witnesses will remain until the end - But they will turn themselves as a nation toward holiness and toward Yahweh... They will KNOW who saved them.
I believe it will likely be before the peace treaty and before the Abomination of Desolation.
Almost certainly. Ezekiel's Temple must be built, and the War of Magog would conveniently sweep Islam off the map, allowing for that to happen. The Abomination can't take place without the Holy of Holies, and Christ must enter through the East gate. I don't see any way around that.
It may be a trigger for the peace treaty.
Perhaps, But I don't think so. There would have to be quite a bit of time for Israel to be considered a "land at peace". I would further submit that "the nations" would not have the hubris to go after Israel in so short a time after seeing them so miraculously kick the snot out of two of the great world armies.
But we are surely close. I may yet sleep, but I am nearly certain that my sons never will.
Of course, this is speculation - No one can predict prophecy. But one can certainly see the season.
I do not believe that Gog is a fallen angel or demon though It would not rock my theology if I turned out to be wrong on that. I think it’s likely the human, though probably demoinzed ruler of Russia, at the time—operating on orders from the covert or overt AntiChrist.
I think if it were a fallen angel etc. that there would have been more evidence toward that meaning.
*shrugs*. It is a small thing to argue over. Powers and principalities, and all that... Whether an arch-demon, or a person possessed by such.
What I would submit is that wherever the term "Chief Prince" is used in the Scriptures, it seems to be in reference to angelic beings. I could well be wrong, as I have not looked into the translation. There is also a discrepancy in translations regarding that particular verse, wherein the "chief prince" is wholly omitted, so it isn't a concept I am married to.
Thanks for your reply :)
I still disagree.
I’d love to know, though, what the variety of ways of stating large numbers were at that time in that culture and language.
It MIGHT possibly be that the way it’s stated in the text is an emphasis denoting God’s point about the specific number.
Regardless, I to NOT think God had a problem choosing between
A VERY LARGE ARMY vs 200 MILLION.
I have found HIS WORDING IN SCRIPTURE TO BE EXTREMELY PRECISE. When He wanted to be fuzzy, He was fuzzy. When He didn’t want to be fuzzy, He wasn’t.
Well put. Excellent points.
Thanks.
imho, THIS is the era when all such will be completed. Folks alive in 1948 will see the completion to after Armageddon.
During His lesson on forgiveness, for instance. He stated we should forgive not 7 times, not 7 times 7, but 70 times 7.
I've always taken this to mean that we should not keep track of the number of times we've forgiven a transgression, but to continually do so as it is asked, not limit our forgivenesses to 490. We'd all be in trouble if God did that. :)
70 times 7 is a number quite a bit smaller than 200 million. Also, Revelation was written in an apocalyptic style, meaning lots of symbolism in there (rather than the historical prose style of the first five books where the law was given).
Because of these items, I'm more inclined to view the army as something that Paul did not know how to describe in words that his contemporaries could understand. 200 Million is something that they could understand as being immense and unbeatable.
The time line is hard to figure.
The 1st war of Gog and Magog has to be in front of the Tribulation. The 2 witnesses testify for 3 1/2 years before they are killed and are killed 1/2 way through the Tribulation. My reading of Rev 11 is they are testifying in front of the Temple. If this is true, the building of the Temple has to begin prior to the Tribulation. If this is the case and the building takes 2 yrs then the war of Gog and Magog has to be at least 2-3 years before the Tribulation.
Also, the 7 year treaty with Israel must come after the Temple is rebuilt. It may be that the muslims are so weakened after the war of Gog and Magog and Israel emboldened by God intervening to protect them that they rebuild the Temple without a treaty.
I think the treaty comes into play because Islam is not swept away. They begin to reunite and war again and that is why a treaty is necessary. Also, I think the Antichrist is their Mahdi. The great falling away may be the rise of Islam and decline of Christianity in the world.
Am more inclined to agree about 70X7
though some insist the context etc. means “70 X 7 in a single day.”
I still think the wiser perspective is taking most such numerical descriptions literally.
There’s a prediction that’s surfaced that Christians will begin to be hunted down world wide in 18 months.
We have brother's and sister's in Christ being killed for their faith right now. I think this has been a constant throughout history. I believe these are the witnesses under the altar.
I only recently started studying eschatology again because every time I did in the past I started trying to predict when these events would occur. I take our Savior at His word, we don't know when. It could be right now as Iscool mentioned earlier "they could loading the launchers as we speak", or it could be 1,000 yrs from now. I do know that if the Temple starts to get rebuilt "it's on".
One thing I am convinced in starting to study this is we have not replaced Israel. The Tribulation is really about them coming to recognize that Jesus is their Messiah.
Good points, imho.
Though I do not see how it could be later than the lifetime of those seeing Israel become a nation again in a day in 1948.
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