Press Conference - ELCA Churchwide Assembly

American Lutheran Publicity Bureau ^ | 17 August AD 2009 | Richard O. Johnson

[lightman]

Press Conference

The press conference began with an overview of the assembly from Bp. Hanson. We begin in a “spirit of confident hope.” The story has not yet been written, but it will be written this week. “We have an opportunity . . . to bear witness to a culture that often wants to polarize.” We are “not always of one mind, but united in faith.” That unity is exhibited first and foremost in worship. ELCA will consider AIDS and Malaria strategies. Each day we’ll study scripture, hear it read, sung, debated. We will consider continuing our ecumenical engagement by acting on full communion with UMC.

We’ve had a thorough and thoughtful discussion of human sexuality. The proposed statement “grounds our thinking in a distinctly Lutheran approach.” This is our 10th social statement; we are maturing as a church in knowing how to come together and engage life’s questions. This week we have two decisions: social statement, and report and recommendations on ministry policies. The church council has brought “a very thoughtful series of questions” that will be before this assembly.

Q: What is the central question that will be before assembly with regard to homosexuals as ministers?

In his response, Hanson said that the question was framed in terms of persons who are “gay, lesbian, bisexual and transsexual” (which wasn’t actually true; the questioner used the term “homosexual”; more about that in a moment). He then went on speak about the entire context of the social statement. He finally got to the specific question of what is before the assembly: the “four resolutions.” Are we ready as a church to recognize that some congregations are ready to recognize same gender relationships? Are we ready to find a way for persons in such relationships to serve in “rostered ministry”? Are we committed to “bearing one another’s burdens etc.”? And the fourth resolution is specific about how we’d do these things.

Q: There appears to be a dramatic shift in thinking over the past two years (as seen in synods urging passage of these recommendations). What has happened in the church in the past two years that has brought this about?

A: “I am neither a prophet nor a prophet’s son, and I work for a non-prophet organization.” Synods are quite varied in terms of their response. Several synods have called for adoption, others for the defeat. People come here as “voting members” on behalf of the whole church, not representatives of their synods. Degree to which actions by synods are predictors of what will happen here is questionable. Certainly the intensity of the rhetoric has diminished over the past couple of years. Those portraying this as an occasion that will lead to division have not been listening carefully. I also do not believe that human sexuality defines the church, and therefore should not divide the church. There is a larger question about the authority of scripture, but our unity is in Christ, which frees us to disagree, while all being sexual beings. [Note: He didn’t really answer the question, though he took a while to do it.]

Q: Vote on rules tonight regarding 50% or 2/3 majority. Do you have a preference? Will this be a preview of how things will go ultimately?

A: I anticipate proposals to amend rules, which will allow for debate. Our governing documents require a 2/3 vote on social statement. Level of vote on ministry policies not set constitutionally. Church Council chose not to recommend a higher threshold. I anticipate a proposal to require 2/3 on the latter, which would take a 2/3 vote to pass. My concern is that we have a good discussion, but not become so complicated that the first night people who may not be comfortable with Roberts’ Rules won’t feel marginalized.

Q: Are you concerned debate in ELCA will become as divisive as it has in the Episcopal Church.

A: I’m always concerned about division, but I don’t see why we should frame the question in that way. We need to frame the question in a way that emphasizes how we invite everyone in. I expect whatever happens some will have deep and profound disappointment. The question is what form that disappointment will take, and that will require continued discussion and conversation.

Q: Full communion agreement: what would it mean in terms of congregational life?

A: One of my concerns is we’ve made the relationship dependent on the adoption of the agreement, rather than the question of “reception.” There is a danger that we adopt the agreement, and it goes nowhere. He listed a series of ways full communion might be useful: coordinated church extension plans, campus ministries, overseas mission, and (get this) “going to Congress to argue for health care and immigration reform.” Somehow he started talking about the decline of “mainline denominations,” noting during his time in office the ELCA has lost half a million baptized members.

Q: Are you concerned about the fact that individual congregations or synods may make different decisions about sexuality may increase divisiveness?

A: This would not allow synods to make different decisions about rostering; there is one roster in this church, and that will not change. There will not be an “A roster and a B roster.” Congregations always have the authority to call their own pastors.

Q: Why have you continued to remain quiet about your personal opinion about these matters? What do you personally think about the proposals?

A: I realize people on both sides have been frustrated by my refusal to take a position on this. My responsibility is to lead the ELCA and the LWF; my responsibility is to oversee this process of deliberation and represent that church externally. I can most effectively lead by making sure this process is participatory, reflective of our theological convictions, and guiding the discussion fairly. Come next Saturday, I will lead this church on the basis of what it has decided. Right now globally it is a particularly difficult time to lead, and I need to be careful about that.

OK, end of press conference. Now, two comments:

(1) OK, I lose my bet. He didn’t talk about how many times he’s met with Obama. Thought he was going to get it in at the very last minute when he talked about how he represents Lutherans in all kinds of contexts, but he missed the chance.

(2) Interesting to me how careful he was always to say the full phrase: “gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered.” I’ve been reflecting lately on how that phrase got inserted into the discussion, without much real conversation. Seems to me that especially the “transgendered” component raises all kinds of issues and questions that go way beyond “gay and lesbian,” and yet we’ve not really had any discussion about whether that is an equivalent category ethically and morally, or something entirely different. Of course the horse is out of the barn, and we are all talking about GLBT now. Too bad.

[lightman]

PBp Hanson has sometimes been described as "Bill Clinton in an alb".

Is it any surprise that the enabler-in-Chief would see one of the key benefits of a full-communion agreement with the United Methodist Church " “going to Congress to argue for health care and immigration reform."?

[lightman]

Lutheran (ELCA) Ping!

Be sure also to read:

Pastoral Guidance Concerning Same-Sex Unions

Delight, Design and Destiny: Toward a Doxological Ethics of Sexuality

Statement by Three Dissenting Members of the ELCA Task Force on Human Sexuality

It’s Not About Homosexuality--Not Really

I think I want a Divorce

“Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust”: A Critique by Carl E. Braaten

When There Are No Biblical or Theological Grounds to Change, Don’t

WordAlone Network responds to ELCA human sexuality proposals

Lutheran CORE leaders urge rejection of ELCA task force recommendations

[SmithL]

I have no optimism whatsoever.

[muawiyah]

Weren't these guys "once upon a time" a series of Scandinavian ethnic churches calling themselves "Lutheran" who then joined together with some independent German "Lutheran" churches made up of folks who came from the formerly Swedish controlled German, Estonian and Polish territories?

Looks like the links didn't quite work if they've now got a group oriented toward joining up with the United Methodists.

Maybe they could just "unbundle" themselves.

[DManA]

I love this idea that the people who don’t agree with the radical change these people are imposing are the ones who are “polarizing”. Just drop the subject and the polarization disappears. Hansen is closing the switch on the electromagnet. When he gets done half of us will be attracted to the new radically changed church, half will be repelled. Who is the polarizer?

[Redleg Duke]

That gurgling sound you hear is the ELCA flushing itself down the proverbial toilet!

[polymuser]

Luther seldom mentions homosexual behavior. But when he does, his evaluation is always negative. For example, Luther identifies the sin of Sodom with homosexuality. Commenting on Genesis 19:4-5, he writes “I for my part do not enjoy dealing with this passage, because so far the ears of the Germans are innocent of and uncontaminated by this monstrous depravity; for even though disgrace, like other sins, has crept in through an ungodly soldier and a lewd merchant, still the rest of the people are unaware of what is being done in secret. The Carthusian monks deserve to be hated because they were the first to bring this terrible pollution into Germany from the monasteries of Italy”.

In the same section of the Genesis lecturers, Luther refers to “the heinous conduct of the people of Sodom as extraordinary, inasmuch as they departed from the natural passion and longing of the male for the female, which is implanted into nature by God, and desired what is altogether contrary to nature. Whence comes this perversity? Undoubtedly from Satan, who after people have once turned away from the fear of God, so powerfully suppresses nature that he blots out the natural desire and stirs up a desire that is contrary to nature.”

http://apprising.org/2009/07/john-t-pless-martin-luthers-rejection-of-homosexuality/

ELCA is NOT Lutheran.

[aliquando]

We conservative Germans are working on that.

[aberaussie]

Is there anywhere people are discussing this live? I’m watching the first plenary, but can’t figure out where I can participate in a discussion.....

[aberaussie]

The motion to require 2/3 majority has failed, so I expect the changes will pass.

[right way right]

Four words missing in the interview.

God, Jesus, Christ, Crucified,.

[lightman]

The vote to require 2/3 (on the Report and Recommendations) required a 2/3 vote for passage.

Frankly,I consider the results predictive of the rest of the Assembly:

436 in favor (42%)
588 opposed (58%)

The motion to require 2/3 failed; and would have failed even if only a simple majority had been required for its passage.

Keep in mind that in previous assemblies that votes in favor of revisionist polices were greater than 50% but less than 2/3.

Now, in this assembly, the pattern continues, but with a lowered bar, passage is virtually assured.

Kyrie Eleison.

[lightman]

Nearly live postings are available from Pr. Richard Johnson on the ALPB fourm, the source of this FReep posting.

As you know there are lively comments over there. Lutherlink/Ecunet http://lutherlink.ecunet.org has a "nearly live" READ-ONLY board. You can sign up for a free "LutherlinkLite" account, then join the discussion titled "2009 CWA INFORMAL REPORTS".

During past Assemblies comments were allowed but it becamse almost impossible to follow the Assembly action as folks were commenting on floor discussions which had ceased hours before. Many of us began clamoring to please make this read-only. The postings are by Miriam Woolbert, an ELCA staffer.

[AnalogReigns]

ELCA is NOT Lutheran.

ELCA is not (faithfully) Lutheran in the same sense that the Presbyterian Church USA (PCUSA) is NOT Presbyterian over the same issue....the United Methodist Church (UMC) is NOT Methodist over the same issue, the Episcopal Church (TEC) is NOT Episcopal over the same issue....ad nauseum in the mainline Protestant Churches. (Roman Catholics have the same issues big time--they've been keeping a lid on it from the top though).

Clearly the pollution Dr. Luther warned about has flooded America, and our thinking, so that the most main-stream, worldly religious groups themselves are more heavily infected than society at large.

I am a part of a conservative Presbyterian denomination (the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, EPC) which, like many of the more recent break away denominations--was birthed partly over the push for perverted sexuality by the mainline Church.

I well realize that the LCMS and other even more conservative Lutheran groups do not have a problem with this (yet), much like the conservative Presbyterians and Anglicans I associate with. However, as mentioned above, sexual perversion is a FLOOD in our society, and we cannot deal with this like previous generations have with an, "It's wrong, so don't talk about it!" attitude.--of God's truth, as found in the bible--about healthy sexual relationships (marriage) and unhealthy ones.

If the kids in conservative (non-mainline) Protestant denominations do NOT get solid scriptural-based teaching on the proper place for sex (only marriage) and the evils of sexual perversion--they WILL get the twisted "Scheiss" (using that old German word Luther used) from the schools, colleges, friends and the fetid culture at large.

We can no longer merely keep things clean--we must as the real Churches of Jesus Christ--be engaged in cleaning up---and aggressively countering the disgusting "terrible pollution" our current day America--and the Western world at large--is filled with in regards to sexual perversion.

[Dahlseide]

http://www.evangelicallutheransynod.org/believe/nsaelc/
My home church took the wrong branch of the split long before I was born. The URL describes a major split in 1917 over the issue of election plus of course faithfulness to the Word of God. Today my old church is represented in that Minneapolis convention

[Marysecretary]

Thank you! I had heard of Norwegian Lutheran churches ‘out west’. We were brought up in the Episcopal Church where a lot of our Norwegian settlers attended because there was no Lutheran church in the area. Every year when I was growing up they had a Norwegian Tea, where children dressed in traditional costumes and served traditional cookies and tea. It was such fun.

[Dahlseide]

As I understand it, most Norwegian emigrants were “high” church. Even in Iowa my church retained, how do you say it? - the form of singing the liturgy by the pastor. So maybe the “Episcopal Church” was the answer to that need.
I am grateful for the way God used Luther - I probably admire him more than any man. He understood the core of the gospel “justification by faith, & imputed righteousness” & that “through the will of God & not man” (i.e. faith itself is from God).
In the upper Midwest the ELS & Wisconsin synods retain the Biblical teaching while the ELCA, formed in part from mergers of its Norwegian antecedents by the Election Controversy in 1917, has gone astray. It should drop the name of Lutheran.

[Marysecretary]

I, too, am grateful for Luther. Are your parents Norwegian?

[Dahlseide]

Yes; both were confirmed in Norwegian & spoke it with my maternal grandma (who lived with us after we lived with her for a few years) when they needed to keep it from my brother & me.

Do you know the hymn “Behold the host arrayed in white ...”?

In Norske it is “Den store hvide flok” by H. A. Brorson 1765. It is absolutely beautiful: it has to have been based on Hebrews 11. It will be one of the hymns sung in Norske & English at my funeral

[Marysecretary]

My parents lived in the same house as my paternal grandmother. She lived in the upstairs apartment, so I was close to her, as close as she was able to make me. Her young life was very hard. Yes, we girls spoke Norwegian and heard it all the time at home between the three of them.
By the time my brothers came, we had moved off the farm into town and mom had learned to speak English better. They never learned it nor did they love all things Norwegian like my sister and I did.

No, I’ve never heard that hymn. I love being Norwegian and being brought up in a community that had so many of them. Din, Maryxxx