How Old Is Your Church?

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[Salvation]

How Old Is Your Church?

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex- monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as 'Church of the Nazarene," "Pentecostal Gospel." "Holiness Church," "Pilgrim Holiness Church," "Jehovah's Witnesses," your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.

If you are Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.

[Cronos]

Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God who was sent here to die for our sins.

So do Mormons. Ditto for Adoptionists and also for Gnostics. And they all say it's in The Bible according to them, sola scriptura.

[dixiechick2000]

“Mormons DO believe that Jesus is the Son of God.”

That’s fine and well.

But, do they believe Jesus is our Saviour?

Interesting homepage you have, Cronos.

[dixiechick2000]

You are wrong.

They do not believe He is our Saviour.

[Cronos]

And, I'm not cherry-picking -- if you take any of your points or all together and say people who believe in The Bible and who believe in the Trinity and who believe that Jesus was/is the Son of God who was sent here to die for our sins, then remember that Adoptionists and even some Gnostic groups believe in that too

The best encapsulation of our Christian faith is in the Nicene creed (or better yet, the Athanasian, but that is looonnng!!)

[dixiechick2000]

Okie dokie.

I get it.

You are an Uber Catholic, with no room in your Inn for other Bible believing, Christian denominations.

I’ll leave you with this thought...I’m glad you are a Christian.

I am too, and I look forward to seeing you in heaven.

[BADROTOFINGER]

Hear! Hear! This is exactly why I regard organized religion with so much disdain, and disdain is how I regard them on a GOOD day. So many seem too wrapped up in the "My religion is better than yours" crapola that really highlights the fundamental and fatal flaw in all organized religions, that God put flawed humans in charge of them.

I expect to hear this sort of garbage from drunken sports fans in a bar, but find it disappointing to hear it from people who claim to have faith in God...JFK

[Cronos]

They DO believe that Jesus is their Saviour, to save us from this evil world and it's demiurge or to show us the way to become gods.

Weird beliefs? Yes. But that is what can happen when you as an individual attempt to understand The Bible

Sola scriptura doesn't work for the reason that to comprehend the work of God is too much for one individual human -- it's too vast for our tiny heads. It's too vast for a collection of 6 billion people but it's not too vast for The Church as a community of believers stretching back to The Apostles

If you research on Church Fathers like Origen, Tertullian, Augustine you will see errors in their works (Origen and Tertullian were orthodox until they misinterpreted) -- and these men were EACH far, far more learned than I could ever hope to be, yet they failed to comprehend the Godhead completely. I have no hope of comprehending it as an individual, however as part of The Church, the community of believers stretching back to The Apostles with the teachings of Christ and the grace of the Holy Spirit, we can start to comprehend.

The institutional aspect of The Church gives us the structure to understand what our forebears prayed and understood (case in point, the Pelagians -- have you heard of them? I hadn't until 7 years ago and I then understood why we have some teachings in The Church. Or take Nestorius and his admirable attempt to oppose Arianism in which he veered to the other side).

If we take sola scriptura we can fall into the heresy of Arius so easily. It was so easy for Arius

A letter from Arius to the Arian Eusebius of Nicomedia succinctly states the core beliefs of the Arians:

"Some of them say that the Son is an eructation, others that he is a production, others that he is also unbegotten. These are impieties to which we cannot listen, even though the heretics threaten us with a thousand deaths. But we say and believe and have taught, and do teach, that the Son is not unbegotten, nor in any way part of the unbegotten; and that he does not derive his subsistence from any matter; but that by his own will and counsel he has subsisted before time and before ages as perfect God, only begotten and unchangeable, and that before he was begotten, or created, or purposed, or established, he was not. For he was not unbegotten. We are persecuted, because we say that the Son has a beginning, but that God is without beginning."

[Cronos]

You are an Uber Catholic, with no room in your Inn for other Bible believing, Christian denominations.

Well, we are not a denomination, we're The Church along with Orthodox, Orientals and Assyrians. There are possibilities for Lutherans, Anglicans and Baptists to be in the Apostolic Church, but the splits among these groups makes a blanket statement implausible.

If you believe in The Bible, if you attest the Nicene creed to completely state your beliefs, then I would consider you Christian, even if you're not part of The Apostolic Church.

The Nicene creed is nice in the way it neatly encapsulates our belief.

Do you attest it? And does your particular community within the Southern Baptists attest to it?

[dixiechick2000]

Oh, Lordy!

I do NOT need your approval for any of my beliefs.

The only approval I need is from God.

What arrogance you’ve shown tonight.

[Cronos]

I do NOT need your approval for any of my beliefs. The only approval I need is from God.

What cheek -- first you request a statement to identify a Christian. I give that to you and you call it arrogant?

Simply put, if you believe in all that's encapsulated in the Nicene Creed, I would consider you Christian. If not, then I don't consider Mormons, JW's Christian as they do not believe in what's in the Creed.

Clear and simple -- do you believe in what the Mormons teach? Or do you believe what's encapsulated in the Nicene creed?

[catfish1957]

Hey those were the only two that came to mind. The Catholic Church over the past two millennium has had less than a pristine past. This again from the priest who called my Religion a “scandalous sect” (Protestant...Presbyterian)

[Yudan]

Cronos,

LOL. Speaking of tweaking, that’s exactly why I brought up 1204 - for one reason and one reason only. As I said, an earlier poster (and at this point in this REALLY long thread I don’t remember who) made an implication that Eastern Orthodox had spread the faith by the sword. I’m pretty sure that poster has yet to provide an example of such.

You brought up Stalin...just to close that issue, Stalin is not a good example of a political leader that the Orthodox would need to apologize for. Stalin purged tens of millions of ORTHODOX laity, clergy, and hierarchs (in addition to the Jews he persecuted).

On the Patriarchates idea, I spoke to a very knowledgeable Orthodox Christian offline (Kolokotronis) about that. Most likely that those legitimately granted autocephaly (Russia, for instance was a Metropolia under Constantinople, whose right it was to grant autocephaly) would keep it. Greece has always been (well, since the Schism anyway) and certainly would remain under the EP and Constantinople.

Agreed on the dogmatic focus.

But, I reckon, there will need to be Orthodox jurisdictional unity in the US first...don’t know why I say that other than it will be a good test of what we can accomplish.

[Blogger]

You are proclaiming bad history. The Popes proclaimed the crusades and funded the crusades. They sold indulgences promising eternal life for those who bought them. To declare otherwise is simply dishonest.

[Cronos]

You are proclaiming bad history. The Popes proclaimed the crusades and funded the crusades. They sold indulgences promising eternal life for those who bought them. To declare otherwise is simply dishonest.

And you say you've studied history during the Middle Ages??? The popes funded the crusades?? Where did you get that? The nobility funded the Crusades -- didn't you hear of Richard the Lionheart who ransomed his kingdom to his brother John to go crusading?

The indulgences were not SOLD, it was you go fight to protect Christians and God will look graciously on you.

Seriously, where have you "studied" Middle-Age history? As you've got it quite wrong.

[Cronos]

The Russians did promote Eastern Orthodoxy by the sword, yes, however it wasn't a rampant act but only in some cases. I don't think the other EO's ever did that

I brought up Stalin because it was as equally absured -- he was of Georgian Orthodox in origin but by no means could anyone call him Orthodox, or even human....

About what would happen post the council -- that is pure conjecture, but I don't see the revoking of any Patriarchates. and I don't think it is feasible in any way.

Orthodox jurisdictional issues in the US are tricky because quite frankly, if you're Greek you should go to the Greek Orthodox Church, ditto for Russians etc. But what if tomorrow there was an American Orthodox Church? Lots of questions -- and answers we can't even guess at or should even try guessing

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for sharing your insights, dear Cronos!

I raised the passage for the discussion because some might say that the Reformation was according to God's will, i.e. that this warning is also prophecy:

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. - Romans 11:20-21

It is not uncommon for Christians to have different understandings of prophecies and indeed even whether a particular passage is prophetic per se.

I'm just a Christian plain and simple. My life is in Him and He is my source and my sustenance.

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; - John 5:26

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. I and [my] Father are one. - John 10:28-30

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. – 1 Cor 10:1-4

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Colossians 3:3

Therefore, the dispute on this thread has no currency with me other than to understand my brothers and sisters in Christ.

For me, physical succession by laying on of hands is comparable to genetic inheritance (Romans 11.) Namely, being now dead to this world and alive with Christ in God, mortal genealogies no longer matter to me because it is "about" the Vine.

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. - Titus 3:9

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:1-5

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:12-13

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. - Romans 8:15

To God be the glory!

[Petronski]

It’s fun in a sad kind of way to see such ignorance of history so proudly unfurled.

[Cronos]

The Catholic Church over the past two millennium has had less than a pristine past

True, we've had loads of rogue Popes -- may they burn in hell. Sorry for being so blunt, but as Kolokotronis, the road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops. Bishops and Popes should be held to higher standards than lay folk. And many of the Popes and Bishops and priests in the Church have failed.

The fact that The Church still survives INSPITE of those is proof of God's grace smiling on The Church.

However, the issues against non-Catholic groups is to be based on their dogma. I don't blame ECUSA for killing Catholics in the Middle Ages, but I do blame them for Gene Robinson

[Cronos]

Hey those were the only two that came to mind

And if the only things against The Church you could bring up were the crusades and the spanish inquisition, I just showed you how wrong and/or hyped up those accusations are -- think of how wrong the others are as well..

[onedoug]

...and promised to send a Messiah. Jesus Christ....

...or Shabtai Zvi, or the Lubervitcher Rebbe...with no indication of divinity. But therein lies the argument, one guesses.

God's grace to You and Yours....

A fellow "catheter ablationist".